I wasn’t hurt or offended by the leaders and friends who didn’t or couldn’t help me at the time. I included that to show that I really did TRY to do everything I had been taught to do, and that I certainly didn’t leave because of lazy. As for offended, I think initially I felt betrayed by God. That He would raise my hopes and then dash them. It would have been one thing to be told “no” but it is quite another to think you have been told “yes” and then as you reach for what you’ve been promised, have God snatch it away. I could not make sense of that. That wasn’t the God I knew or believed in. Like I said, it was a two year struggle to try and make sense of it. For most of that time, I assigned the short-coming to ME, not God. I felt that I must have failed somehow, not had enough faith, not been diligent enough, etc. At one point, I actually entertained the idea that it was a giant trial – and that the reason no help was forth-coming was that God wanted me to find the strength to weather this in me and in my faith. But, like I said, I could not make sense of a God who could be so cruel. THAT is what kept me “stuck in my grief for so long.” I was grieving the loss of my faith, and the loss of the loving God I had believed in all my life.

I’m not going to bore you with the whole long story again. I eventually came to the conclusion that the LDS church isn’t true. Really, just that. It’s not true. And so I left. Not because I’m too lazy to live the commandments (which I continued to do for quite a while after leaving “just in case”) or because someone offended me (I have way more of a backbone than that). I left because I have come to the conclusion that the church isn’t true.

As for not leaving it alone, it’s hard to leave it alone when you regularly find remnants of the indoctrination making your life difficult. I NEVER speak against the church when I am among members, out of respect for them and their beliefs, but I ABSOLUTELY speak against the church when I am with like-minded people, who are going through or have gone through, what I am going through. I have not told a single one of my LDS friends that I left the church because I think it’s a big made up lie. Many think I’m just inactive, some know that I had trouble reconciling my experience with a loving God and think I’ll be back when I “figure things out,” and a few know I’m gone for good, but don’t know why.

Once again, Shalom!

Imagine two students looking at an animal swimming in a fish tank. The animal has gills, scales, fins, and fishy looking eyes. The teacher says, “That is a bird.” Both students believe the teacher because he is in authority. Both students ask many questions and figure ways to justify that the things that look like scales could be feathers and the fin like appendages could be wings. Eventually one of the students says, “I don’t know if the teacher is lying or simply repeating falsehoods that he believes but that animal is not a bird.” The other student continues to believe it’s a bird but realizes that it requires a huge amount of mental energy to believe it’s a bird. In addition, he has to sacrifice his own personal integrity to a degree to continue his beliefs. He must redefine certain parts of the English language. Words like logic must take on different meaning than they do in the dictionary. Lots of people make fun of him for still thinking that fish are birds but he is willing to make the sacrifice.

The first student is not worried about it. It’s a fish and the teacher was wrong.

This is where the word lazy comes in. It is easier to believe your own eyes and ears than it is to morph your senses to meet your expectations. All the facts point to the idea that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other church leaders were perverts. That is how it appears. I spent a lot of time trying to morph them into prophets like Abraham that made a mistake or two but no matter how much head strain I exerted, they still look like perverts.

I have stopped exerting the energy needed to morph perverts into prophets. Josh continues to make those mental back flips and figures anybody unwilling to do that work is lazy. I quit making mental back flips. I don’t see that as lazy but can see how Josh sees that way because he continues to do the work of making a fish into a bird.

For starters my family converted in 1846 so we’ve been in the Church for some time. Generation after generation.

However it wasn’t until recently that I set out to strengthen my testimony. Starting with GBH’s conference talk about how it all depends on the first vision – I started there. Boy was I shocked. Shocked to find out that it was all made up. The veracity of the claims of the Church went downhill from there.

I’m not going to convince you however. There is plenty of evidence to do that without me. It’s you, the individual who has got to decide to give both sides a FAIR shake. Not simply conclude it’s all good, it’s all true and then pick and chose what to look at, what to believe in order to fit your prejudice presumptions. Its a mater of fairness, it’s a mater of honesty, it’s a mater of integrity. You can’t say that god said “thou shall not bear false witness . . .” or whatever and then give Joseph Smith a pass for doing just that. At least in my eyes that is not fair at all.

So, why do I fell that this is a silly conversation – because you might as well be arguing that the earth is flat. You grew up believing that, you believe god would have no other way. So you believe the earth is flat. Trouble is – the same trouble there is with the claims of the LDS Church – and that is that there simply is overwhelming evidence that it just aint so. So how silly of it would it be for me to think I can come along and convince you otherwise.

Yet, someday, if you do decide to give all the evidence a fair shake. If you are able to put aside your preconceived prejudices and really open your eyes and look – should you be able to entertain the idea “what if it isn’t true” well then you will see for yourself what truth really is. I can’t do that for you.

In the mean time, all I see TBMs doing is to trying very hard to justify those prejudices. To the point of being passive aggressive, insulting, demeaning, ostracizing and worse to those who threaten their cherished preconceived beliefs. It’s the very definition of closed minded, but that is what they accuse us of being.

Until then, enjoy your flat earth.

DK

I’m not so sure why you think Joshua is not part of the “mormon mindset”, since he is a believing, participating Mormon from what I understand. But maybe he gave you more strokes than I did. I don’t know, you would have to answer that, and so would he.

I also believe that you completely missed my point as well. You responded in just the way I expected someone who claims to be an apostate with whom I am attempting to truly communicate, that of throwing insults out because I have dissimilar points of view. I do not feel that your response is a good way to come to an understanding of things. I see this type of blog as a way for people to hopefully come to a meeting of the minds, in a “non-threatening” atmosphere, so that these issues may be discussed openly. However, mud-slinging and throwing insults around as you have done, seems to defeat the whole purpose of the blog, and of what you claim to be requesting from others, that of understanding your perspective.

To quote you from one of your previous posts, “Also, I’ve found forums and e-mail are great for connecting with like-minded individuals, but can degenerate far too quickly into snide remarks when people disagree. That’s not my preference. I’m happy to share what I have learned, but don’t want it to become negative.”

So I come to you with a question, in order to clarify your negative responses toward me, while additionally, telling Joshua that you appreciate people like him and love to have more open and respectful dialogue? Your responses are very contradictory, and I feel that you believe I have personally attacked your ego, which is not the case. I also find that many of my comments are fairly close to Joshua’s in content. So what makes the difference in your mind?
If there is a statement I have made that you believe to be truly negative, or that you would like further explanation on, a respectful question or discussion would be welcomed on my part. The rest is left up to you.

Joshua, I appreciate people like you and love to have more open and respectful dialogue. I hope your kinds of questioning continues and that you find what it is you truly seek from this line of questioning. Wow, what a flurry of responses you have here to sift through! Sincerely, best of luck. (I’m happy to discuss more anytime.)

Kym&Carla

Kym&Carla

And of course my comments are from someone who cannot believe that the Church is *not true*, because I believe with all my heart, soul, might, mind, & strength, my full intellectual & spiritual soul that it is true. I was & am not bigoted; I was just delineating my opinion about what Joshua had queried. I am truly sorry that you are unable to accept that I cannot believe the Church is not true. I CAN accept that YOU believe it is not true, & you have that right.

So I will remove the word “lazy” (because it is offensive to you), but leave the observations as they stand. I was not inferring that all the people who choose to leave the Church themselves are lazy as individuals. Obviously, there are many who spend countless hours searching for and studying all the damning evidence they can find, & that takes a lot of work. I do wonder, however, if they are searching for the wrong things. Are they things that will help the World be a better place? Are they things that will bring peace, love, & oneness to the World? I know some people find peace for themselves after they leave the Church, & some even say they finally found Christ outside the Church. I’m glad they found those things. I feel bad though, that they didn’t find those things within the Church, because they are there, for that is exactly where I did find peace, happiness, love, joy & especially Christ.
I will say that I see many exmos who have chosen to give up their faith & their testimonies for intellectualization of bits & pieces of ‘evidence’ & such, to make judgments about an organization that brings people to Christ, their Savior, if they but let it.

In our limited human minds, with a very small capacity to understand the things of God, how can we judge facts or stories to their full extent without really knowing the mind & heart of the people who wrote or said those things & of those who supposedly did all those *horrible* things– or most importantly, without knowing the mind & will of God, or having a full understanding of his plan–and might I add, without “the rest of the story”?
I am sorry that you chose to be offended at my comments, & made a judgment on what kind of comments Joshua was looking for. I thought this was an open blog, & I chose to respond with my opinions.
I do wish to add one thought. I see many ex- Mormons who have taken the Spirit and spiritual things out of the equation. They consider things on a purely intellectual basis, while still making judgments & conjecture with their human emotions, or as some would say “neurochemistry”. This in itself seems a contradiction, when they reduce all spiritual experiences as being just that, human emotion/neurochemistry. How do you think we have the capacity to make judgments at all, intellectual or otherwise?–those neurochemical processes within our body & brain. Plus, how do we have the capacity to think & feel emotions when we are spirits without our bodies? Will that be reduced to neurochemistry?
All I can truly say is that Christ lives and loves us all, and wants us to do the same. And I am trying, hard though that may be.

Kym&Carla