Comments on: Egyptians, Horses, and Rocks in Hats http://www.mormondna.org/ask-me-questions/egyptians-horses-rocks-hats.html What Mormons Are Really Made Of Mon, 06 Feb 2012 10:14:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Betty Sedillo http://www.mormondna.org/ask-me-questions/egyptians-horses-rocks-hats.html#comment-2448 Betty Sedillo Sat, 04 Feb 2012 21:02:34 +0000 http://www.mormondna.org/?p=317#comment-2448 I find it interesting that you would claim parts of Mexico or Central America as where these "lamanites" would have settled, when the "golden plates" were "found" in the eastern mounds of the US. It makes no sense that they would have been that far from there supposed settlement. By the way, I was raised LDS having been adopted at age 5, probably because they thought to save me as a specimen perhaps , as I am part native american. As I have had a good proportion of my youth spent studying lds beliefs, from primary to youth groups and seminary at 6 am, later to becoming a primary teacher. Farther into adulthood and much inquisitiveness about world religions and archeological history, it occurred to me that this "new & true" religion was just more of the same. Just as we now find ourselves wondering how people could have worshiped as they did, so will the future generations wonder about this one. Many of the bible "stories" when looked at with the scientific knowledge we have now, are acts of nature, yet the people of that time believed they were being "punished" for sins. ie: the earth opening up and swallowing them (earthquakes) floods, locusts , disease etc....Religions main purpose is to control groups of people and give certain others the "power" to rule, and it is incredibly effective, why would those with the "power" want "believers" to stop believing? They would of course, not have the reverence, and willingness to to be "followed". My main objections as I left this "religion" was to the extreme patriarchy and racism of the lds. That a woman could not "enter into the highest level of the kingdom of god" without being married is something I find quite insulting. Likewise the opposition to the negro peoples considered to be "cursed". I might also note that the "lamanites" were also considered "loathsome" to their sight. This is classic racism, and there is history of Brigham Youngs racism. That "the church" chose to change policies when the US government made it clear that polygamy would not be accepted, and then called it "prophecy" speaks volumes. Why Blacks were "suddenly" not as cursed is also a bit suspect to me. I find it interesting that you would claim parts of Mexico or Central America as where these “lamanites” would have settled, when the “golden plates” were “found” in the eastern mounds of the US. It makes no sense that they would have been that far from there supposed settlement. By the way, I was raised LDS having been adopted at age 5, probably because they thought to save me as a specimen perhaps , as I am part native american. As I have had a good proportion of my youth spent studying lds beliefs, from primary to youth groups and seminary at 6 am, later to becoming a primary teacher. Farther into adulthood and much inquisitiveness about world religions and archeological history, it occurred to me that this “new & true” religion was just more of the same. Just as we now find ourselves wondering how people could have worshiped as they did, so will the future generations wonder about this one. Many of the bible “stories” when looked at with the scientific knowledge we have now, are acts of nature, yet the people of that time believed they were being “punished” for sins. ie: the earth opening up and swallowing them (earthquakes) floods, locusts , disease etc….Religions main purpose is to control groups of people and give certain others the “power” to rule, and it is incredibly effective, why would those with the “power” want “believers” to stop believing? They would of course, not have the reverence, and willingness to to be “followed”. My main objections as I left this “religion” was to the extreme patriarchy and racism of the lds. That a woman could not “enter into the highest level of the kingdom of god” without being married is something I find quite insulting. Likewise the opposition to the negro peoples considered to be “cursed”. I might also note that the “lamanites” were also considered “loathsome” to their sight. This is classic racism, and there is history of Brigham Youngs racism. That “the church” chose to change policies when the US government made it clear that polygamy would not be accepted, and then called it “prophecy” speaks volumes. Why Blacks were “suddenly” not as cursed is also a bit suspect to me.

]]> By: Joshua Steimle http://www.mormondna.org/ask-me-questions/egyptians-horses-rocks-hats.html#comment-1641 Joshua Steimle Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:26:49 +0000 http://www.mormondna.org/?p=317#comment-1641 John, throwing out insults does nothing to help either of us acquire more truth. If you have a point to make, then use logic and make it. BTW, I'd estimate that most entrepreneurs use about 95% faith and 5% scientific method when they're getting started. Perhaps the more successful ones are 90/10. If an entrepreneur relied too much on the scientific method they'd never get around to starting a business. John, throwing out insults does nothing to help either of us acquire more truth. If you have a point to make, then use logic and make it.

BTW, I’d estimate that most entrepreneurs use about 95% faith and 5% scientific method when they’re getting started. Perhaps the more successful ones are 90/10. If an entrepreneur relied too much on the scientific method they’d never get around to starting a business.

]]> By: John Engelman http://www.mormondna.org/ask-me-questions/egyptians-horses-rocks-hats.html#comment-1640 John Engelman Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:07:08 +0000 http://www.mormondna.org/?p=317#comment-1640 Posted by: Joshua Steimle on September 26, 2011 at 11:22 am I continue to find that those who believe Mormonism is false are exercising faith. ------- Joshua, you are too intelligent to really believe that. You do not seem to understand the scientific method, or know how to evaluate evidence. Nevertheless, I know that you do. If you exercised faith in making business decisions you would have gone out of business long ago. Posted by: Joshua Steimle on September 26, 2011 at 11:22 am
I continue to find that those who believe Mormonism is false are exercising faith.

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Joshua, you are too intelligent to really believe that. You do not seem to understand the scientific method, or know how to evaluate evidence. Nevertheless, I know that you do. If you exercised faith in making business decisions you would have gone out of business long ago.

]]> By: Joshua Steimle http://www.mormondna.org/ask-me-questions/egyptians-horses-rocks-hats.html#comment-1639 Joshua Steimle Mon, 26 Sep 2011 17:22:46 +0000 http://www.mormondna.org/?p=317#comment-1639 "How much proof do you need?" How about any proof? I have never seen any facts which, individually or collectively, prove Mormonism to be false. Circumstantial evidence is not proof. Lack of objective proof that Mormonism is true is not proof that it is false. After years of people coming to this website and trying to prove to me that Mormonism is false, plus years of my own reading of anti-Mormon websites and investigating their arguments, I continue to find that those who believe Mormonism is false are exercising faith. If they possess any actual knowledge that Mormonism is false they have been unable to adequately present their case. Their "facts" never lead to the conclusions they have previously reached. Instead, the facts are often shown not to be the actual facts, or the facts are at least in dispute without a means of verification. Or the facts simply do not lead to the conclusions argued for without making various assumptions, which are often incorrect in part or in whole. “How much proof do you need?”

How about any proof? I have never seen any facts which, individually or collectively, prove Mormonism to be false. Circumstantial evidence is not proof. Lack of objective proof that Mormonism is true is not proof that it is false. After years of people coming to this website and trying to prove to me that Mormonism is false, plus years of my own reading of anti-Mormon websites and investigating their arguments, I continue to find that those who believe Mormonism is false are exercising faith. If they possess any actual knowledge that Mormonism is false they have been unable to adequately present their case. Their “facts” never lead to the conclusions they have previously reached. Instead, the facts are often shown not to be the actual facts, or the facts are at least in dispute without a means of verification. Or the facts simply do not lead to the conclusions argued for without making various assumptions, which are often incorrect in part or in whole.

]]> By: John Engelman http://www.mormondna.org/ask-me-questions/egyptians-horses-rocks-hats.html#comment-1638 John Engelman Mon, 26 Sep 2011 13:46:59 +0000 http://www.mormondna.org/?p=317#comment-1638 Posted by: Joshua Steimle on July 4, 2011 at 9:37 am “When I began my investigation of the Mormon religion I wanted it to be true. I was terribly disappointed when I discovered that it was not. ” There is no way for you to “discover that it was not”. There is no proof the Mormon religion is false. This is proof that you did not want it to be true. --------- How much proof do you need? Do I have to keep repeating the facts that I have posted here again and again? Also, you cannot judge my intentions. I really did want Mormonism to be true. Posted by: Joshua Steimle on July 4, 2011 at 9:37 am
“When I began my investigation of the Mormon religion I wanted it to be true. I was terribly disappointed when I discovered that it was not. ”

There is no way for you to “discover that it was not”. There is no proof the Mormon religion is false. This is proof that you did not want it to be true.

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How much proof do you need? Do I have to keep repeating the facts that I have posted here again and again? Also, you cannot judge my intentions. I really did want Mormonism to be true.

]]> By: Joshua Steimle http://www.mormondna.org/ask-me-questions/egyptians-horses-rocks-hats.html#comment-1622 Joshua Steimle Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:06:56 +0000 http://www.mormondna.org/?p=317#comment-1622 Our interpretation of the Bible confirms what we believe as Mormons. When we read the Bible we don't see it as contradicting the Book of Mormon or anything else in our church. Our interpretation of the Bible confirms what we believe as Mormons. When we read the Bible we don’t see it as contradicting the Book of Mormon or anything else in our church.

]]> By: Ann Mere http://www.mormondna.org/ask-me-questions/egyptians-horses-rocks-hats.html#comment-1621 Ann Mere Sat, 17 Sep 2011 00:55:39 +0000 http://www.mormondna.org/?p=317#comment-1621 Why does the Bible say to paraphrase: When you know the truth, the truth will set you free. The truth is right in front of Mormons, but they close their eyes & ears and sing out: "I believe, I believe, I believe, I believe, and they deny the truth & evidence that the very God who created this universe is giving them. Why does the Bible say to paraphrase: When you know the truth, the truth will set you free. The truth is right in front of Mormons, but they close their eyes & ears and sing out: “I believe, I believe, I believe, I believe, and they deny the truth & evidence that the very God who created this universe is giving them.

]]> By: Joshua Steimle http://www.mormondna.org/ask-me-questions/egyptians-horses-rocks-hats.html#comment-1349 Joshua Steimle Mon, 04 Jul 2011 15:37:34 +0000 http://www.mormondna.org/?p=317#comment-1349 "When I began my investigation of the Mormon religion I wanted it to be true. I was terribly disappointed when I discovered that it was not. " There is no way for you to "discover that it was not". There is no proof the Mormon religion is false. This is proof that you did not want it to be true. Otherwise you would not have had the ability to prove a negative. If you were saying that you could not prove the Mormon Church to be true and therefore couldn't join, that would be saying quite a different thing. "How does one know when God speaks, or what He says?" Ultimately through the Holy Ghost, but also through the scriptures and God's chosen leaders. They do not contradict each other and by utilizing all of them one learns more and more about the truth and God's will. As for President Bush, the Spanish Inquisition, and Mormon persecutors, what can I say other than I think they were mistaken if they think God was telling them to do what they did. It's not impossible for someone to think they're under the influence of God when they aren't. But when someone is truly under the influence of God it's difficult to mistake it for anything else. I believe it would take a certain amount of will. “When I began my investigation of the Mormon religion I wanted it to be true. I was terribly disappointed when I discovered that it was not. ”

There is no way for you to “discover that it was not”. There is no proof the Mormon religion is false. This is proof that you did not want it to be true. Otherwise you would not have had the ability to prove a negative. If you were saying that you could not prove the Mormon Church to be true and therefore couldn’t join, that would be saying quite a different thing.

“How does one know when God speaks, or what He says?”

Ultimately through the Holy Ghost, but also through the scriptures and God’s chosen leaders. They do not contradict each other and by utilizing all of them one learns more and more about the truth and God’s will.

As for President Bush, the Spanish Inquisition, and Mormon persecutors, what can I say other than I think they were mistaken if they think God was telling them to do what they did. It’s not impossible for someone to think they’re under the influence of God when they aren’t. But when someone is truly under the influence of God it’s difficult to mistake it for anything else. I believe it would take a certain amount of will.

]]> By: John Engelman http://www.mormondna.org/ask-me-questions/egyptians-horses-rocks-hats.html#comment-1348 John Engelman Mon, 04 Jul 2011 15:29:59 +0000 http://www.mormondna.org/?p=317#comment-1348 One other factor plainly evident in our conversations is that you place a lot of importance on evidence that comes from a source other than God. That’s all well and good for scientific research, but unnecessarily time consuming when it comes to the larger questions of life. Were one to depend on science to get their bearings when it comes to the things of God, they would constantly be blown about and caught off guard by every new piece of information, and would never be able to make a decision, let alone move forward with confidence. It is only logical that we must get an answer from God. - Joshua Steimle ---------- How does one know when God speaks, or what He says? After the invasion of Iraq President Bush said that God told him to invade. http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml I am glad that Bush did not think God told him to launch a nuclear attack on Russia. The leaders of the Spanish Inquisition thought God told them to burn heretics. Many people have thought God told them to persecute Mormons. One other factor plainly evident in our conversations is that you place a lot of importance on evidence that comes from a source other than God. That’s all well and good for scientific research, but unnecessarily time consuming when it comes to the larger questions of life. Were one to depend on science to get their bearings when it comes to the things of God, they would constantly be blown about and caught off guard by every new piece of information, and would never be able to make a decision, let alone move forward with confidence. It is only logical that we must get an answer from God.

- Joshua Steimle

———-

How does one know when God speaks, or what He says? After the invasion of Iraq President Bush said that God told him to invade.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml

I am glad that Bush did not think God told him to launch a nuclear attack on Russia.

The leaders of the Spanish Inquisition thought God told them to burn heretics. Many people have thought God told them to persecute Mormons.

]]> By: John Engelman http://www.mormondna.org/ask-me-questions/egyptians-horses-rocks-hats.html#comment-1346 John Engelman Mon, 04 Jul 2011 15:20:50 +0000 http://www.mormondna.org/?p=317#comment-1346 When one does not receive an answer it is because they did not follow the steps. Most frequently I believe that part that is left out is sincerity... I think one major factor in measuring sincerity is desire. Does one really want these things to be true, or do they just want to know? - Joshua Steimle --------- When I began my investigation of the Mormon religion I wanted it to be true. I was terribly disappointed when I discovered that it was not. Many Mormons who have learned what I know about Joseph Smith's perfidy appear to have been traumatized, perhaps for life. When one does not receive an answer it is because they did not follow the steps. Most frequently I believe that part that is left out is sincerity…

I think one major factor in measuring sincerity is desire. Does one really want these things to be true, or do they just want to know?

- Joshua Steimle

———

When I began my investigation of the Mormon religion I wanted it to be true. I was terribly disappointed when I discovered that it was not. Many Mormons who have learned what I know about Joseph Smith’s perfidy appear to have been traumatized, perhaps for life.

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