Do Mormons believe they get their own planet after they die?

This question was put to me by a friend of mine (no, not the one with all the anti-Mormon questions). The answer is a “not really…well, sort of, I guess…well, I guess I can see why people would say that” type of answer.

The quick answer is “No, we believe we get an entire universe” but even that would be misleading because the real answer is “We don’t know.” Allow me to explain, and prepare for your eyebrows to raise a little. Here it is in a nutshell.

Mormons believe that human beings are children of God, and as such, have within them the potential to become like God. Got it? Let me say it more clearly. We believe that we can become Gods. Trust me, if you think about it and read the Bible from this perspective a lot of things will start to make sense. Just read Romans 8 where Paul says that we’re children of God and that we’re joint-heirs of God with Jesus Christ. In other words Christ is our brother and together with him we’re all heirs to what God has. What does God have? The kind of life a God lives. Here’s shocker #2–we believe God used to be a man, just like us.

Now this brings up all sorts of logical and reasonable questions like “When did Gods begin then?” and “Is God the God of the entire universe or just part of it or are there other universes?” and “So there are other Gods then?” and the answer to all of these and many other questions is “We don’t know.” All we worry about is one God.

But one of the questions that arises is “So what is God all about, and if we’re going to be like him then what do we go about doing after we die?” and the logical answer would be that if we become like God then we would create other planets like this one and populate them with our children, just like God has done with this one. And I’m guessing that’s where people would come up with the idea that Mormons believe they get a planet when they die. But as for me, I’m holding out for my own universe, although I’m sure it requires a bit of after-death training to run one.

Comments

  1. So… you really buy into that? This sounds like a religion that is driven by greed. But, then again, aren't most religions? Do what we tell you (comply) and when you die (and ONLY when you die), you'll get all of this neat stuff PLUS eternal life! Whoo-hoo!!!

    • The primary motivating factor in the Mormon religion is to attain happiness. Everything else is secondary and a means to that end. I don't know of any Mormon that sits around saying "Man! I just can't wait to have my own universe!" We believe the things that produce happiness after we die are the same things that produce happiness in this life. So no, we don't suffer during this life with the hope of something good afterwards–we're happy right now. At least I am.

      • This is opposed to Christianity where the most we want to obtain in Heaven is perfect glory to God and holiness. God doesn't care if we are happy, he cares if we are holy. Happiness is just another greed. Let me say this again, God wants us holy, we gain eternal life not to run universes or planets but to worship him continually, just as we should have been doing here (although we obviously all fail at that).

        • Agreed. A self centered religion as so many are. Christianity should be God centered.

          • My friends , I come to you with my open heart. Satan is on Earth to deceive and to confuse many. We know this because 1 third of all angles fell onto earth with him. Ever wounder if the “angle” was a demon? Deceiving man. Also if Jesus is the way , truth and the life. Why does there have to be another “Holy” book? In the Bible it says God is a Jealous God. Do you think he would want you to be a God yourself? Just love God without a title . Peace unto you

          • The earth is over 4 billion years old. All religion was made up to keep people in line. To have unquestionable obedience. I’m not saying there is no God. All I’m saying is nobody knows.

  2. So… If Mormons KINDA believe in other planets with populations, why do they think that the idea of alien life in our universe is completely absurd?

  3. Who says Mormons think the idea of alien life in our universe is completely absurd? Watch this four-minute video from Neal A. Maxwell, one of the apostles of the church, and that will put to rest any idea that Mormons don't believe in intelligent life on other planets.

  4. You guys are all crazy and going to hell. What a shame because I have noticed that you all seem like good people. God was never a man. And you will never come close to ever measuring up to the dirt Jesus scrapped off his sandals when he walked the earth as a man. None of us ever will so how can you have the audacity to think that you can be "gods"? God is perfect, sinless. So was Jesus. That's why God sent him to die for our sins, then 3 days later he resurrected him. Joseph Smith was a clown who fooled a lot of people. God made us to glorify him. That is our purpose in life. When we die, those of us who followed Jesus' instructions, and teachings will get to heaven to glorify and worship God, NOT TO RULE PLANETS! Read the bible, the real bible, find some sense and repent. Hopefully not all of you will end up in the fire "where there will be crying and gnashing of teeth" for all eternity.

    • There is something wrong with you Laura and it is people like you who not only go to hell but create so much evil in the world and horrible reputations for religion all around. What's wrong with people like you???

      • There is nothing wrong with Laura. Laura is one of the few are willing to call the Mormon religion what it is, a sham, a lie a religion made up by a con artist. Simply put those who believe in the Mormon faith are completely lost and will only be found when they actually find Jesus Christ.

      • My dear Tiffany, I love you and may God bless you. So, you have your opinion but Laura can’t have hers because you say so or it offends you? And Laura gives religion a horrible reputation and creates evil? Really! Don’t know but, I dare say Laura is running around cutting peoples heads on and posting the video on Youtube. That my friend is evil. I myself believe the Bible. Goes without saying that when Jesus says he is the way, the truth and the light I believe he is. Not one other , man, has performed the miracles and been raised from the dead. Only the son of God. He also says that non believers will suffer the consequences. Do Mormons believe in Jesus? I am just asking since I do not know. Anyway, believe what you want but don’t judge and put down, its is people like you who give bad reputations. God bless.

    • Laura, your comment was pretty harsh and judgmental. Matthew 7:1 says "Judge not, that you be not judged…" Having been a Baptist all my life I realized, when reading Mr. Steimle's comments, that though we disagree about humans "becoming Gods", our basic tenets are fairly close. On earth we have to strive to follow God's Commandments and become as much like Him as 'humanly" possible. We were born into sin, and we are sinners – each and every one of us; however, Heaven is a perfect place. We will know no grief, no sorrow, no sin, but I believe God was, is, and always will be omnipotent (supreme). After all, we get into heaven by God's Grace – and ONLY GOD'S GRACE! My Bible is not like the Torah, but I would never condemn the Jewish people nor their beliefs. Maybe we can leave it all up to God and keep our human emotions out of it. God bless you, and let's keep each other in our prayers.

    • My goodness, you sound just as crazy as anyone who think they will "become like God" – because you believe in Hell, with the devil and the raged clothes and those caves. And the heat! MY GOD THE HEAT! Neither of these things make any sense but you are allowed to believe it just like Mormons are allowed to believe what they choose, as long as it is not forced upon anyone else.

    • Kiss my ass, YOU'RE going to Hell for being a bigot, because I have a book that says so.

      • Anger is not Christlike, it lowers you to their level. Please don’t curse, it is not the way to win a conversation, or to convert.

    • Im with you Laura on this one. People hate to hear the truth.

      • It’s almost like hate, ignorance, close-mindedness, and bias all come from people who won’t even consider other religions, ey, Pache? Also, the LDS church supports asking God in order to gain a testimony, so WE actually DO consider other religions.

    • So if Joseph Smith is a phony who fooled a bunch of people then what does that make Jesus? The worlds greatest magician?

    • Why would good people go to hell? God is just, and therefore would give everyone a fair chance. Also, perfect does not mean sinless. We can all become perfect, but none of us will be sinless save those who are mentally impaired or those who died under the age of eight. Also, your ignorance and bias is what keeps you so close-minded, let go of your pride and anger, you are in no position to say that we are going to Hell. Your actions are anything but Christlike, while being kind to others IS. You are a hypocrite. Correct yourself before you correct others. Honestly, you do not pity us. Your bigotry is clear, as is your self rightousness. God wants us to be like him, to do what he did. I think he will give each pair (man and wife worthy of the Celestial Kingdom) their own universes, of which I extremely look forward to. I have many plans for this time, and I can barely wait, I am bursting with excitement.
      Also, we use the King James version. What “true bible” do you use? And saying that we will burn in Hell is never a good method of conversion.
      “Audacity”? We are children of God, children grow up to do what their parents did.

      • Common Cents let me point out that there is a problem with your theology regarding getting your own universe. Mathew 20:30 tells us that in the next life, none are given in marriage. In fact, Galatians 3:28 tells us there is neither male nor female. So, you might choose to believe you will get a universe, but it is un-Biblical to believe you will still be joined with your wife.

  5. Actually the doctrine has changed and/or been removed in the recently new published Gospel Doctrine book.

    Used to read:

    "Jesus taught,'In my Father's house are many mansions' (John 14:2)…If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, just like our Heavenly Father"

    Now it reads:

    "If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, to live with our Heavenly Father in eternal families."

    • Doesn’t it bother you that your gospel changes? How can it be truth if it changes?

      • Changing how the gospel is taught does not mean the gospel that is being taught has changed. God has always modified the mode of teaching to match the needs of those being taught.

        • However, your “gospel” does change. It was once preached that being black was unacceptable, that having multiple wives was ok and that drinking something as benign as coffee was a sin.

          But now, the “belief” of the Mormon faith is that black peopel are acceptable, that having multiple wives is unaccetaple and that drinking coffee is ok. How do you justify that?

          How is that not changing the “gospel” as you put it.

  6. So Laura you might not be aware of this so I figure I might let you in on a little secret GOD is the only one who has the authority to condemn anyone to Hell, I mean heck im not here to tell you how to run your life and by all means keep saying it if you find it leaves you with some strange satisfaction just thought you would like to know that he is the only one who can do that same thing actually goes for judging people Crazy right! who would have thought well hope you have a nice life look forward to talking to you as we wait in line to be judged and if by some turn of events your right and I am wrong well we will have a good laugh about it Im sure BYE.

    • She's not condemning anyone she's saying that's what god is gonna do. But let me know how your planet it is I might ride over there on my unicorn and say hey.

  7. This is a response to Laura. I am guessing you call yourself a Christian, but your words toward Mormons are anything but. Your nasty tone and hateful words give Christians like me a bad name. Treat others the way you would like to be treated.

    • Agreed Karen, Laura's intentions may have been good, but she seems to have missed the mark and fallen short just as we all have at one time or another. Us Christians should never judge, just love.

    • Laura was unkind for sure but don’t repay evil for evil. Take the high ground.

  8. Wow, I am not a mormon, but I am doing research and I found this site. I do not believe in the Mormon religion or their beliefs, but I do not believe that anyone should condemn a whole group of people like some of the posts on here have. If you are truly a Christian, you would not be saying those awful things to them, instead you would be trying to help them see the truth. I am truly sorry for the awful things that have been posted on here.

    • All Christians are lunatics. Otherwise, they would not still believe in Santa Clause let alone owning your son universe of planet. Wake up and face reality fool.

      • Christians are just afraid to see the truth, Laura is not condemning anyone, Christians need to wake up and face reality.

      • WHAT?

      • To AL G. DID YOU READ WHAT YOU POSTED? I DON’T THINK SO! WHAT RELIGION ARE YOU? I THINK YOU MUST BE A DEVOUT MORON!

    • On behalf of Christians everywhere I apologize. Don’t count us all out.

  9. laura does not have a nasty tone or hateful words. what is so wrong with telling people what you think. I have read lauras message and i think she is right. what she said was writen in the bible.and having a universe and thinking your going to be a 'god' when u die is NOT writen the bible.might be writen in your mormon bible, but not in Gods bible.you can never become like God after you die, you will stand in front of God and he will lead u into heaven or to hell it matters if you believe in him or not.it says it in the bible.it doesnt say you will get a universe or be like god. i think laura was right with what she said.you dont have to hate just because you dont agree.

    • Anyone who really believes that God would honestly throw a person into HELL because of what they believed as a Mormon is so wrong morally not mention un-American. To actually agree with what Laura said is crazy, and to any sane person that would make you a bad person so what are you believing in God for in the first place when you don't at all practice what he teaches?? I want so much to go to church, to take my family to a church to worship God but there are so many of you crazy evil lunatics that there is no way I can feel comfortable to bring my precious family near ANY church. You guys just run with any stupid idea and don't put any real thought into yourselves or the real world around you, instead carry on with this self entitled self righteous backward agenda that keeps religion and the actually good religious people from so many other people who are too terrified to encounter someone like you to even actually join any church. You both need to repent yourselves because the only people that our loving God would ever even consider sending to "hell" are bad people not someone who believes in the Mormon teachings. Are you going to fly a plane into another building in New York now or what?? If you want to make our world better THINK.

      • Tiffany, I'm so sorry, but it is not God that determines whether you go to heaven or hell. It is us ourselves. The Bible twlls us what it takes for us to believe in God, the Trinity God., God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
        If we choose to believe in Him and do as He teaches us, then when you stand bfore Him in the judgment, He will give you His permission to enter Heaven. If your nae is not written in the Book of Life, then you are sent to hell, where their will be whalling and gnashing of teeth. It will last for eternity.
        God is a Good God. He gives us the choice to either follow Him or deny Him. Either way, it is our call, to live or die for eternity. God Bless You.

      • What do you mean by un-American? The United States Constitution clearly states that Americans have the freedom of religion no matter what religion it is. I agree with Catrina and when you say that anyone who believes this is crazy and a bad person you are just judging those people with no real solid evidence as to why they are wrong. This may just be a stark reality for you but then again false information is normally easier to swallow than the truth.

      • God doesn’t want to throw anyone in hell. Quite the opposite. He sent his own child to earth to save us from hell. He is a holy and just God and sin has to be punished. Every single one of us is sinful. Our sin is like filthy rags to him. We can’t go to heaven with filthy sin. We need a savior.

    • My mother, a Christian, always told me to believe nothing you read, and only half of what you see. That advice is a good today as it ever was! The truth is that people believe what they believe because of where they were born and how they were raised, unless the start to use their brains and think for themselves, and question everything? NOBODY KNOWS if there is a god, what happens when we die etc. We can only Choose to Believe, and that's it. As for me, I don't believe anything until I experience it myself. Religions, for the most part were invented because people were scared and ignorant so the leaders took advantage of the situation and did what all great leaders do – they lied to the people – and they believed!!!!!

    • Actually the Bible does say to strive to be Christ – like daily. That means try and follow Jesus’ example by doing right by other’s and helping the needy instead of insulting one another we should bring each other up and pray for each other. If you don’t agree with a religion politely give your opinions if you feel it is needed. All the hatred toward other religions is going to do is stem more hatred and teach our children is ok to be prejudiced against people who are not like us.i don’t believe that’s Christ like nor is it being a Christian. God bless each and everyone of you and i praythat everyone has a blessed day.

  10. Catrina- Read more carefully. I didn't say I didn't agree. I am fully aware of what is in the bible. I do not beleive what Mormons believe, as I am a Christian who follows the Bible. What I don't agree with is turning it into a personal attack against an entire religion of people by using unkind words towards them and saying they will go to hell. That will be between them and God. Personally I don't think it is pleasing to God to speak unkindly to people because of their religious beliefs, instead I think he would want us to be good Christian examples and treat others the way we would want to be treated. That is all. I don't "hate" like you said in your post. Find someone else to attack- I don't think I am the target you are looking for.

    • She is attacking the religion not the believers. These are two very different things. Also the constitution clearly states that all Americans have the freedom of speech so she can freely state her beliefs on this topic and not everyone has to like it just like you are stating your beliefs now.

      • actually, reading as a non-believer, she was attacking the believers. Attacking the belief SYSTEM would start with “That’s hogwash” and continue on with showing how they’ve got their scripture wrong, rather than simply announcing “You’re going to hell” in a visibly condemning tone. The first step, of course, is knowing your theology well enough to spot the flaws in their readings and interpretations-which she did not do, followed by then demonstrating where it is incorrect using scripture and text-the very tools they use to demonstrate why they believe themselves correct.

        Telling someone “You’re going to Hell!!” is attacking the person, esp. when you don’t back it up with the “Why” (Which was not done).

        As for my part-I’ve examined various religions in forty years of life, most of the local variants of Christianity and Judeo-Christian offshoots. From a practical, scriptural standard, Mormons are about as Christian as Baptists, Methodists, or Catholics, the single potential heresy being their add-on “book of Mormon” which details an account of Jewish settlement in North America in ancient times-and a visit by Jesus Christ post-crucifixion. The fundamental rules of Christianity are the fundamental rules of LDS belief, however, making it fall under the same “Christian” heading as the Coptic Christians of Egypt/Ethiopia or the Greek Orthodox (both have additional books not included by the council of Nicea in the 4th century A.D….) or groups like the Catharist christians of pre-Crusades france.

        i.e. to an outsider, Mormons ARE Christians. Goofy ones, but so are the other denominations, the only real difference being they’re the offshoot that hasn’t waged wars on the other branches to convert them by the sword in the good Jihadi fashion of the Thirty Years War, various Pogroms, English Civil War, etc. etc.

        The others? Most of the Christian Denominations that denounce the LDS/Mormons as heretics or ‘Not Christian” have been around long enough to have murdered and plundered other, disagreeing, now mainstream Christian sects, some of them quite recently (Northern Ireland during the Troubles comes to mind…Protestants and Catholics, murdering each other in the name of Jesus Christ, who taught us to love one another…)

        Before discussing whose beliefs are going to take them to hell, it’s probably worth noting that Jesus cautioned against the urge to cast stones, that one should probably remove the beam from one’s own eye, and that only G_D has the right to lay judgements down, and he might well have a different view than you do as to what’s hell-worthy and what isn’t.

        Just sayin’.

  11. Karen- you are so right! It's so sad how "christians" have set such a bad example for so long….and this is not an attack on Laura…I don't know her heart, only God does. I'm sure that she has good intentions…it just isn't presented in a Christ-like fashion. I agree with most of what she said, but to my understanding..Mormons believe that Jesus is the son of God…that he died…and that he rose again on the 3rd day. I also remember reading that they call him their savior. Just hope they believe Jesus IS God. If all that is true, I don't believe they will go to hell. Have they been mislead…yes. I think the fundamental truth is there though. I pray for them. I also pray that those of us who do read our bible will listen to Jesus' teachings. Jesus said the two MOST important commandments are to Love the Lord your God with all your heart and to love your NEIGHBOR as you love yourself…speaks volumes I think. My only advice to Laura and other christians is that if you believe someone is going to hell it's your DUTY to pray for them and to try to witness to them so that they too can be with God in heaven. If someone started barking at you and telling you that you are completely wrong about something you believe in…are you likely to listen to their reasoning?? No. Why? Because they are presenting themselves as unreasonable. I prefer to call myself a Christ-follower…just because the term Christian is so often associated with hypocrisy. I hope everyone has a blessed day!

    • WHEN THESE WHITE PLAGUE CANAANITES RACIST CURSED UNDER THE OLD LAW COVERNANT BY JEHOVAH GOD WHITE AND THIS CAN BE FOUND IN THE HOLLY BIBLE LEV 13; I-20 AND I BELIEVE WHEN THEY DIE THEY ALL ARE GOING TO HELL.. THAT IS THEIR UNERVERSE.

  12. Thanks Melissa- I agree with everything you said. I also refer to myself as a Christ follower, because of the same reasons you do. There are too many people with attitudes like Catrina and Laura (see above) that I prefer not to be categorized with.

  13. Ironically enough, I don't see a big difference between the errors in Mormonism and the misuse of scripture in Christianity. Someone mentioned that Mormons needed to read the "Real" Bible…but, I sometimes wonder what bible a lot of christians are reading. The 4 gospels speak nothing but LOVE. Where is the love? People are so judgemental and self-righteous. I am fully aware that I am a sinner. I'm sure as I type I am committing sin in my irritation with these people. Gosh, it's just that Jesus himself suffered so much persecution from the pharosis(aka church people) for doing things differently…for not following THEIR rules. But, who are they? Sinners like the rest of us…why are they setting rules? My biggest issue with Mormonism is that they rely too much on their "works" here. Now, don't get me wrong…this quality makes them some of the kindess people you will ever meet. But, in my opinion, feeling that you need to do certain things sort of says that Jesus isn't enough. JESUS IS ENOUGH! The truth is that once you are truly saved…you do good things here…not because you feel like you're supposed to, but because you WANT to. It's because you understand the gravity of what Christ did and you want to please him. I am so grateful everyday and nothing I ever do will ever live up to what Christ did for me and all of you. He just wants you to love people, that's it….spread the good news and love.

  14. Exactly Melissa. That is what I was getting at in my first post. There is a large population of Christians who claim to read the bible and follow it but instead of living as Christ lived, the become judgemental, self-righteous and even cruel. I think they justify their actions because they somehow feel that because they are saved, they are above others who may not be saved yet. Instead of looking down on those who are misguided, we need to share our faith, love people and tell people about God. That is what Christ would do. You couldn't have said this point better! God Bless.

  15. I have stumbled onto this thread on Father's Day 2010. I'm taking a father's perspective.

    All the various religions of the world, including my own (Christian – Roman Catholic), must seem a little strange from the outside. But we worship the best way we know how, and we present to God our offerings of praise, of petition, of love, and of service. And I believe that God, like a loving Father, accepts them. What loving father would behold a gift from their child, OFFERED IN TRUE LOVE, and reject it because it is not perfect? How often has one of my young children given me a crazy drawing, or an unidentifiable sculpture, or a really gross-looking sandwich they made, and I haven't taken it with heartfelt joy and love? Offered in love, accepted in love – good, bad, and everything in between.

    All our scriptures, doctrines, rituals, liturgies, prayers, and acts, offered in earnest love to God and with selfless charity to our fellow human, JUST MIGHT BE ACCEPTABLE TO A LOVING GOD who knows what is in our hearts.

    I cannot claim with absolute certainty that the God I worship (ONE God in three persons: Father-Son-Holy Spirit), the rites I follow (Roman Catholic), the holy sacraments I've received (five out of a possible seven), and the Scriptures I hold to be the Divine Revelation of God (46 books in the Old Testament, 27 in the New Testament), are the only truths. They are the truths which lead me to a loving relationship with my Creator and Redeemer.

    As to everything else? May God our Loving Father have mercy on us, accept our unworthy offerings, and bring us ALL to eternal life so that we may behold Him as He is.

    • This is likely the finest statement I have ever seen, with regards to how to comport one's life and what one might hope to expect from a deity who really loves His children. How can any of us profess to know the mind of God…and yet what kind of Father would He be, if God knew you lived in accordance with whatever beliefs you held, and still denied you a life with Him?

      If He loves you, how can He deny you? And if He does deny the faithful, I'm not sure I want to be invited to that kind of afterlife anyway.

  16. You're all sinful bastards. You don't know what I'm all about. MAN wrote the bible, MAN "speaks for me", MAN interprets my meanings, MAN to this day changes the bible and manipulates it to serve his own purposes. You're all going to hell as far as I'm concerned. I'm currently there myself chillin' with my brother Satan. We're kicking back a few beers. YES WE DO THAT! Once again that was just MAN thinking he's a bad guy and my enemy.

    • God, u just sed wat ive been trying to say for YEARS.

    • Yes we are all "sinful bastards" as you say, but even though the Bible was written by man it is God-breathed. Man does not change the bible and manipulate it to serve his own purpose. Every version of the Bible was TRANSLATED from the original Greek texts. So yes we are all sinners you got that right but what you said about man goes completely against what the Bible itself teaches.

  17. I think that when I die i will worship the god who gives me my gifts rather than the gifts that are given to me. I would much rather spend eternity with the one who has always loved me (God of the Holy Bible) rather than rule my own planet or universe.

  18. Early Mormon church leader Lorenzo Snow said; "as Man is God once was, and as God is man may become." Hence the implication is that men can become gods and that that God was once a man which isn't true as we can see that God has always been God and he created everything else in the universe as seen in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Also, as shown in Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." So clearly God couldn't have been a man first as man didn't exist yet until God created him on the sixth day of creation (see Genesis 1:6) and without God man was just dust and dust could not create all of the heavens and the earth. So, as I said, God could not have been a man first.

    I will show in another post how the Book of Mormon and the beliefs of the LDS church and other LDS holy books are not needed and that the Bible is completed and it has all the revelation that we need.

    • i just stumbled upon this old post. But as arguments generally go, this one is still relevant. I would be what others would call "A Christian", or a follower of Christ. There are many terms but all in all I follow and believe in the Holy Bible. This bible and religion that follows has been around since the beginning of time. Many of these other "religions" are fairly new if looked at in the context of time itself. I do not believe Mormons or some of the other religions will all go to hell. No-one can know which ones will be allowed eternity in Heaven or Hell. In fact, I believe many "Christians" will go to hell. A title means nothing. It is our character and core beliefs that will determine who goes where. Consider this: Your young son comes up to you and says: "Dad, when I grow up I want to be big and strong, smarter than the whole world, be rich, and be everyone's boss, just like you. Dad, will I grow up and be all those things just like you?"

    • (Continued)
      The fathers response, if he is an honest father would be something like, "Son, you will, God willing, grow up to be big and strong just like me. But as far as being rich, smarter than everyone and their boss as well? Well, I only look that way to you because of your perspective of me. I am older than you therefore you look up to me. I am only the boss to a few people. I have bosses as well. But know this my son, I will always love you no matter what." I believe that any individual who believes John 3:16-18 and has asked Jesus into his heart will live in Heaven for eternity. Mormons, as well as other religions do believe this. I do not believe that God will throw true believers out of heaven just because they got a few things wrong. Who is to say who is exactly right or wrong. This we will find out when we get to Heaven. I think a lot of believers miss the point altogether. Besides believing Jesus died on the cross and rose again, his blood covering our sins and allowing sinners of all kind a path to Heaven; His main point was for us to love one-another. So many of us don't share His Love. I wish we would.

  19. Hi Kent, we Mormons are quite aware of the scriptures in the Bible, but of course we interpret them differently than members of other faiths, just as members of all Christian denominations interpret the Bible differently. If not, then the Catholic Church never would have had to deal with that pesky Martin Luther.

    According to your interpretation of the Bible, God could never have been a man. According to our interpretation, God could have been a man. Who's right and who's wrong? One cannot appeal to the Bible for an answer, because you end up back where you started–with each party claiming their interpretation is correct and the other incorrect. There is no way to determine who is correct without evidence external to the Bible.

    As for the Mormon interpretation of the scriptures you cite, here it is:

    Genesis 1:1 – "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    How does this prove God was never a man? It only does so if you interpret this scripture as meaning that nothing existed prior to God creating the heavens and the earth. But there are many different ways to interpret this scripture. Here are some alternative possibilities:

    1. "created" = "organized". Maybe the scripture doesn't mean that everything on earth or in the heavens was created out of nothing, but that God took existing matter and organized it into what we see today.

    2. What are "the heavens"? Is this referring to the entire universe, or only to the heavens as seen from the earth we live on? Maybe our earth was somewhere else in the universe, and God moved it into its current orbit, or brought the elements of our earth together in its current place, and thus he "created" the heavens, or that is, the heavens as we know them did not "exist" in the sense that there was no mortal to see them from the perspective we now see them.

    3. "God" or "the Gods"? The Hebrew translation of this scripture uses the word Elohim, which is a plural form of the word "God", or in other words, this scripture can also be read as "In the beginning the Gods created the heavens and the earth."

    4. What's "the beginning"? Is the scripture talking about the beginning of our earth, the beginning of our universe, or the one and only beginning of everything?

    5. Even if the answer to #4 is "our universe", who's to say there isn't more than one universe? Maybe each God gets their own universe to work on.

    Moving on to the second scripture, Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

    1. Is this scripture saying Adam was the first man every created, ever, anywhere? Or just the first man created on this earth?

    I don't know the answers to all the questions I put forth above, but suffice it to say that all the scriptures of the Bible can support the Mormon perspective that God was first a man, and that man may become like God. But of course it depends on your interpretation of those scriptures.

    Where Mormons agree with mainstream Christianity is that there is only one God we worship and obey. Whether there is one god, or two, or two hundred, there is only one that matters to us. Just as a child has only one father, and that father is the only man who matters to him, even though other "fathers" exist in the world, we have only one Father, even though there are others. Which God do we worship and obey? The one who created us. Are there other men on other worlds who are the children of a different God and worship him instead? Theoretically the answer is yes. But for our purposes on this earth and in this life it doesn't really matter.

    The bigger logical question the Mormon perspective brings up is this matter of where everything really began. If God was once a man, then where did he come from? Theoretically, from another God, but then he was a man once too, right? Quickly you come to the question "Well, this all had to start SOMEWHERE, right?" And that's where Mormon theology doesn't provide a concrete answer, at least not that I've found. But then again, it doesn't really matter, since having the answer wouldn't affect my behavior one way or the other.

    Oh, as for the statement "God has always been God" that statement can be true and still jive with the Mormon perspective. We believe that all beings have always existed, although they may progress and change. You and I have always existed in spirit form. God has always existed. We all have. And inasmuch as we are on the road to becoming like God, you could say we already are "gods" in the same sense that a child is a man–not a fully grown man, but he is a "man" in the sense he is human and will become a fully grown man. Perhaps it's easier to understand the Mormon perspective if you think of the word "god" as describing a species. We are all "gods" the same way we are all "human". The difference between us and other species (by which I mean animals) is that other species all attain the full measure of their creation, unless they die prematurely. Humans do not all become like God, but that is based on their choices. Thus, not all humans become gods, but all gods always have been gods, if that makes sense.

  20. Hello Joshua, even the book of Mormon says that “God is the same yesterday, today, and forever” in several different passages so yes God has always been God and he couldn’t have been a man first.

    But it is just restating what the Bibles says, that Jesus Christ, who the Bible says is God, is

    the same Yesterday, Today, and forever.

    John 1:1-3 says:

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”

    As far as whether there was anything before the creation it is clear that only God created everything as we see in Genesis 1:14-17:

    Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth.”

    So yes there was nothing else besides God before the creation of Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 and God, one God but three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (that is the plural aspect you spoke of), created everything, the Heavens (the entire universe) and the earth and the Bible doesn’t say there are other universes so that is just pure speculation.

    And while God knew he was going to create us, as he is and always has been and always will be, all knowing and all powerful, Man didn’t exist before he was created from dust in Genesis.

    There is nothing in the Bible that says Man existed in any form prior to the creation, other than in God’s own mind.

    You said, “I don’t know the answers to all the questions I put forth above, but suffice it to say that all the scriptures of the Bible can support the Mormon perspective that God was first a man.”

    Where does it anywhere in the entire Bible say that God could have possibly been a man first? All it says is that God created man from the dust of ground hence man didn’t exist before God created him as the almighty God can make dust into men but dust can’t create anything.

    You said, “There is no way to determine who is correct without evidence external to the Bible.”

    My point entirely, that the Bible is the source in all spiritual matters so we either believe what the Word says or we don’t believe it.

  21. In my last post I said:

    "the Bible is the source in all spiritual matters so we either believe what the Word says or we don’t believe it."

    I know some people will say that is narrow minded and if that is the case, then so be it but in the end it doesn't matter what I say but only what God says.

    Matthew 7:13-14 says

    “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

  22. Again, it's all a matter of interpretation. Without external revelation, we don't know what the correct interpretation of scripture is. Left to our own devices, the best we can do is make assumptions about what the words of the Bible mean.

    A primary difference between Mormons and the rest of Christianity is that most of the rest of Christianity doesn't even claim to have any source of external instruction to tell them what the Bible means.

  23. Joshua, you said the following:

    "A primary difference between Mormons and the rest of Christianity is that most of the rest of Christianity doesn’t even claim to have any source of external instruction to tell them what the Bible means."

    Yes we do have a source and that is the teacher, the Holy Spirit, who Jesus said would be coming to help us.

    So what source would I trust, man, which is the only external source we could possibly have, or would I trust God the Holy Spirit?

    I think the choice is obvious!

  24. I take back my statement then, although there was a time when the majority of Christian leaders rejected the idea of modern-day communication with God.

    You and I both claim to have the same external source of evidence, that is, communication with God via the Holy Spirit. Of course you claim God's spirit tells you one thing, and I claim it tells me something different. There's no objective way to prove things are one way or another. That is, I can't prove my views to you, and you can't prove your views to me (although obviously we'll all be presented with objective proof once we die).

    But I don't see a problem with this. God didn't set up things so that anyone could prove to another what is true. He set things up so that each person, individually, could prove to himself what is true. My purpose with this website is not to prove to anyone that anything is true. My only purpose is to clarify the Mormon point of view where it has been misrepresented, and to show that Mormon theology can not be proven to be false. As long as the door is left open, I'm sure those who humbly seek the truth will find it.

  25. You are right about the door being left open to those who humbly seek the truth and that truth can be found in the Bible the only source, the true Word of God, that we need for all things spiritual.

    My question to you and others from the LDS church, do you truly know that you are forgiven from you sins, not just mistakes, but sins that would put you into outer darkness forever after you die?

    Because if you aren't sure, you can know with all certainty by repenting (turning away) from your sins and believing in the true Jesus of the Bible, not just the spiritual brother of you, me, and even Satan, but Jesus who is both God almighty and who also came to this earth for a brief moment in time and who took on the form of a perfect human being to be sacrificed in our place on the cross to give us something none of us deserve and none of us can ever earn, a place in heaven for eternity with God.

    This was foretold by the old testament prophets such as Isaiah who said in Isaiah 53 which was written hundreds of years before Jesus came to this earth in perfect human form:

    “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    From John 19:

    “After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.”

    Also from John 19: “He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.”

    So what was fulfilled and what was finished?

    1. The predictions of the old testament prophets of the coming and the crucifixion of the Messiah to take away the sins of the world.

    2. And his rising from the dead three days later to conquer sin and death, not just to give us a chance to be righteous, which is utterly impossible on our own apart from believing in him. As the Bible says in Romans 3, “There is none righteous, no, not one.”

    But the good news is found in Romans 10:

    “that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

    Also from Romans 10:

    “For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved”

    So the Bible is complete and we have no need of any modern prophets to point the way to anything else but to Jesus and him crucified for all of us.

  26. The major difference between the truths found in the Bible and the the beliefs of the LDS church seems to center on who Jesus is.

    Is he someone who progressed to became the perfect being he is today (LDS version) or is he God almighty who took the form of a perfect human being to fulfill the need for the perfect sacrifice as foretold in the Bible by the Old Testament sacrifices of the spotless innocent animals such as lambs?

    My concern is that people are following another gospel that is leading people towards outer darkness.

    Because the Bible warns in Galatians 1:9:

    “if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed”

  27. The Jesus of the Bible is the Jesus we believe in. We don't see any conflict between what the Bible says and what we believe. We believe we are following the true Jesus, the true God, and the true gospel. Again, it's all a matter of subjective interpretation.

    Not that we believe everyone else is following the wrong Jesus, wrong God, wrong gospel, per se. We just believe all other religions have portions of the truth, but not all of it. You might compare it to two people who each have maps to show them how to get to the same place. Both maps are complete and show the same course to be taken, but one shows more detail, making it easier to navigate. Likewise the Book of Mormon, other scriptures, and modern-day prophets add detail to the gospel. They clarify the points where there is confusion and make the path more clear.

    I'm sure anyone who sincerely studies the Bible and follows its teachings will be saved. But if God wants to give us more scripture to compliment the Bible and help us better follow his gospel, why reject it? What sense does it make to tell God "Nope, I've got enough truth and I don't need anymore."?

  28. But to people of the LDS church, do you truly know that you are forgiven for any sins you have committed or may commit in the future?

    Because unless you are perfect for your entire life you will end up in outer darkness and the following passages show how all human beings are, to varying degrees, and none of us can ever hope to be in the presence of Heavenly Father without an atoning blood sacrifice to take our sins away as he cannot look upon sin in any form.

    Romans 3:10-13 says:

    “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands;

    There is none who seeks after God They have all turned aside;

    They have together become unprofitable;

    There is none who does good, no, not one

    Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”

    Romans 3:22 says:

    “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”

    Isaiah 64:6 says:

    But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;

    We all fade as a leaf. And our iniquities, like the wind

    Have taken us away

    The good news is that we can know we are truly forgiven by believing in Jesus and what he did for us, period, there is no other Gospel except this.

    And no, we cannot progress to this as even one sin, which is not just a mistake, but is something that will keep us out of the presence of Heavenly Father forever.

    So what did Jesus do for us?

    He died on the cross in our place and his blood, the blood of someone completely innocent, paid the price for all of us, the guilty, and it is by his grace we are saved not by works lest anyone should boast.

    So I know I am saved and I will spend eternity in heaven with my Heavenly Father as I have repented of my sins and I believe in Jesus and what he did for me and that he rose from the dead on the third day and believing in him and what he did for me is all that will keep me from outer darkness as without the blood of Jesus shed for me, I can’t possibly, no matter how hard I try, live up to it.

    Matthew 11:28-30 says:

    Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

    So all Jesus expects of us is to believe in him (that is that is his burden put on us) as he did everything for us by dying on the cross in our place so that Heavenly Father will not remember our sins past, present, or future so the rest for our souls is in Jesus Christ and what he did for all of us.

  29. We are all sinners who don’t deserve anything except outer darkness for eternity for even one sin because, as I pointed out in my last post, Heavenly Father cannot look upon even one sin but it impossible to never commit any sins so what is the solution?

    1 John 1:8 says:

    “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

    But even the Apostle Paul knew that he still sinned and did things he really didn’t want to do.

    Romans 7:18-20 says:

    “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.”

    The solution? Believing in Jesus Christ, period!

    Romans 8:1-2 says:

    “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.”

    So, as I also pointed out, you can find true rest in your soul by trusting in what Jesus Christ did in your place on the cross and this is how you can know that you are truly forgiven.

    My LDS friends, you can never live up to the perfection God demands on your own without giving it all to Jesus who did it all for you!

    • Joshua got owned.

      • Not sure how anyone got “owned” by Kent’s comment. He just stated what Mormons already believe. I agree with him 100%.

        • If you agreed with him 100%, there would have been absolutely no contentions against his points on your part.. however, there were. smh.

          • I have no contentions with his comment that starts this thread, the one you appeared to be referring to work your “owned” comment.

  30. Joshua, one more think before I take a break from all of this, if our interpretations are incorrect, then all we get from it is a place in a lower heaven which really in the grand scheme of things is not much of risk.

    But if people from the LDS church are incorrect in their interpretations and they aren't following the true Jesus of the Bible, then they risk being in outer darkness for enternity out of the presence of Heavenly Father.

    Because we believe that the three heavens in the Bible are:

    1. the sky above our earth where the clouds are and the birds fly, etc.

    2. outer space (the entire universe outside of our atmosphere).

    3. Heaven (the only one) where God himself resides.

    So no I didn't come here to harras people from the LDS church but only to witness to the truth because I care about people from the LDS church.

    Thank you for allowing me to post my beliefs in these matters.

  31. All I know…Mormon guys are HOT! WOOF!

  32. I would just like to point out several things hear to some of the people proclaiming themselves to be christians yet the seem to take pleasure in judging other churches beliefs

    1: Christ himself taught in the gospel of Matthew.

    "Judge not, least ye be judged! For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged

    therefore what right have any of you to sit in judgement of the beliefs of others, especially MORMONS? as a Member of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latterday Saints and a CHRISTIAN! (yes folks we ARE CHRISTIANS _ as they say, the clue is in the NAME! (of our Church)

    What right do you have to say "God has never been a man. Christ himself who you as a christian claim to believe in declared that is the SON of god therefore by divine parentage he would also be a God. If god also created us as his children then would it not make logical sense that a Heavenly Father would want his children to become like him and achieve the same knowledge and life that he has?

    • EXACTLY and well put, I dinnae ken wits wrang wi" Human Race, but suppose I do,as its all "Predicted",,,, Sometimes we all think we are "Right" We as "Humans" never like to be wrong?? Im from Highland Scottish and Ulster Scot decent and had many turbulent times doing my family history as one fought against yhe other!! If they were alive today I would seriously "Bang their heeds tegether" Strict presbyterian and catholic with others,,, erm?? Mormon Church I can honestly say is "TRUE" and although Im not engaged in it, I can see the teachings I had many years ago are coming to "Fruitition"" I can honestly declare the True Church will always be the centre of Adversity!!

  33. kent in answer to your question – HE IS BOTH!

    We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

    We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

    We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

    We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

    We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

    We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

    We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

    We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

    We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

    We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

    We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

    We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

    • HOW DO THAT SOUND A IGNORANT BITCH OF YOUR RELIGION MORMON TRYING TO COMPARE GOD'S WORD- THE HOLY BIBLE TO THE BOOK OF MORMOM A BOOK WRITTEN BY THE KU KLUX KLAN .DAMN! HOW IGNORANT YOU- PSYCHCAUCASIANORGYNOCATIVEPUSSIPATIVESSATANICWORSHERS CAN GET.

  34. In order to be given a "Universe" you must enter into the highest part of the "CELESTIAL KINGDOM",

    But don't be disappointed if you don't make it, because even the lowest kingdom of heaven is trillions of times better than earth. if you live Worthy and obey the commandments, and humbly, work to it + some other sacred stuff(very important but me being only a teacher 14-15 i am still learning what i must accomplish in the mortal world) than you are better ready than many. but if you expect a universe than you wont get one. its like demanding God to give you something, you must be humble knowing that it his not your decision. other info may be found on official church websites. by the way genealogy is very important. so is the "word of wisdom"

  35. oh ya if you want to know what we believe than "LatterDay_Saints_are_christians_2" just summed it up

  36. and kent your info on the kingdoms of heaven is not entirely literal, it is symbolic

  37. LatterDay_Saints_are_christians_2 said,

    "What right do you have to say “God has never been a man."

    I will restate what I posted earlier with the Bible as my source that God created man out of the dust so man didn't exist yet until God created him so God couldn't have been a man first.

    "Early Mormon church leader Lorenzo Snow said; “as Man is God once was, and as God is man may become.” Hence the implication is that men can become gods and that that God was once a man which isn’t true as we can see that God has always been God and he created everything else in the universe as seen in Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

    Also, as shown in Genesis 2:7 “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” So clearly God couldn’t have been a man first as man didn’t exist yet until God created him on the sixth day of creation (see Genesis 1:6) and without God man was just dust and dust could not create all of the heavens and the earth. So, as I said, God could not have been a man first."

    Please quote sources and not just one of your early church leaders, like Snow, saying it as that doesn't prove anything except that people in your church believe this. Especially show me in the Bible where it says he was a man first.

  38. Communism is the only true achievement of happiness. Religions are poison where the few corrupt kill millions and destroy other millions lives.

  39. Laura – I suggest you follow your own advice- we do read the REAL bible as you call it – we use the King James Version of the bible and believe it to be true as far as it has been translated correctly

    Also Kent – you say al lot here about being savedonly by the grace of god….and tel me to quote the Source (I take it you mean the bible)

    ok then I have to point you to this scripture in the bible.

    James 2:14-26 (New King James Version)

    Faith Without Works Is Dead

    14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

    18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

    25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

  40. therefore we are saved by Faith AND works

  41. This of course comes from the bible – and is also backed up by 2 Nephi 25:23 in the book of Mormon – Another testamen tof Jesus Christ.

    2 Nephi 25:23

    For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to BELIEVE in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

  42. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

  43. please check out the following article

  44. please check out this article

    http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&so

  45. What a childish understanding of scripture, Latter Day Saints are not Christians. Christians are monotheist. Christians believe that God is the one and only Almihgty God who created everything, matter, space and time. He is not a created being, He is the only thing that is essentially necesary (that means essential in His being for anything else to exist).

    Jesus Christ is not a created being, He is one with the Father and the Spirit, 3 distinct persons in one God, and eternal and without cause, they are not effects of any other being.

    Lucifer is a created being and not a deity. If Jesus and Lucifer are brothers then Lucifer is essentially god too, absurd.

    Try reading James in context, perhaps some rules of hermaneutics will help you understand context. What James is writing is simple, essentially what he says is – If a man says he has faith and there are no works to accompany that ascertion, is that kind of faith real faith and can that kind of faith save? Context is everything, and perhaps a Greek lexicon will help you too.

    I say Grace WITH works is dead and it's proven everywhere in the New Testament, Christ plus nothing is what is required, for if we say Christ gave himself as a sacrifice for sins but the will of man can overpower his work he accomplishes nothing. Christ actually died FOR something and accomplished what he set out to do. His atoning death ACTUALLY paid for real sin and appeased the Fathers wrath – the Everlasting Father, not some exhaulted once human being.

  46. P.S. a word about context – words must be in the context of the sentence, a sentence must be understood within the context of the paragraph, paragraphs must be understood within the context of the writing of the letter or epistle and the letters must be taken in context of the entirety of the Book, in this case the New Testament. Which by the way is the most attested to document we have from antiquity. We are very sure that the new testament we have is what the first generation of real believers understood to be true. The Bible has not been misinterpreted, just bastardised by charlatans like joseph smith, who was obviously uneducated in Biblical studies and languages.

    I do not mean to be harsh and apologize if I sound that way. Smith was absolutely not a prophet, just as the Pope is not a prothet. Making excuses for the error (or purposeful misleading) of these men is blasphemous.

    I know better than to argue with a Mormon on these points (my daughter is Mormon) these realities are approached with a completely closed mind where logic and critical thinking are discouraged and in many cases forbidden. I pray for Mormons daily, that the Holy Spirit will change the heart of stone into a heart of flesh and regenerate every one who the Father truly draws to the Son. This is the only salvation, not some choice made without consideration of facts but a burning in the bosom, which we are also cautioned to disregard in scripture.

    Enough rambling, Grace and Peace to all who know the real Jesus Christ and His Father the everlasting and eternal God. Prayers for conversion for the rest of you. Remember Grace with works is DEAD.

  47. My question to our Mormon friends is if you don't believe the Bible is translated accurately, then why use it at all? The choice we have is it really the inspired Word of God or it isn't. But I think most scholars would agree that the various translations over the centuries are completely consistant with only minor differences that don't affect the meaning of them.

    So the choice is believe the Bible and its teachings or believe the teachings of the Mormon Church as they contradict each other.

    This is how all of us as human beings are, to varying degrees, and not one of us can measure up, apart from believing in Jesus Christ.

    Romans 3:10-13:

    As it is written: There is none righteous, no, not one;

    There is none who understands;

    There is none who seeks after God.

    They have all turned aside;

    They have together become unprofitable;

    There is none who does good, no, not one.”

    And the passage below is the only true work we can do as stated by Jesus Christ himself.

    John 6:28-29:

    Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

    Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    The key section from James 6 is:

    "Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!"

    I think it is clear that good works are evidence of true faith not the cause of the true faith as is shown again by the passage in John 6 that the work we are to do is believe in the one who the Father has sent and works will naturally follow from that belief. After all, the demons recognize who Jesus is but they hardly do good works but we as Christians do good works not to become saved but because we are saved.

    So again, my question to Mormons is, do you really believe in your heart that you are truly forgiven?

    Because apart from believing in Jesus only as the way to salvation you can never live up to the perfection Heavenly Father demands as sin, any sin, can never be in His presence.

    So there are differences in the teachings of what I consider mainstream Christianity and Mormonism so you have to choose one or the other.

    You can accept Jesus Christ's free gift of him dying in your place on the cross for the remission of your sins or you can strive and never live up to it completely trying to believe in Jesus plus your own best efforts which are guareteed to fail.

    I thank God I chose Jesus as the only way I can be saved so I know I will be in heaven when I leave this earth, do you?

    After all, Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the father but through me."

    He didsn't say plus our own best efforts.

  48. Also, can someone please show me how the words of Genesis 1:1 could possibly be miss translated. This passage says, "In the beginning God Created the heavens and the earth"

    So it is clear that God existed before everything else in the universe was created and as I said earlier, He created man out of the dust of the earth so God couldn't have been a man first as man didn't exist before God created him and man was dust before God created him and dust can't create anything.

    Again, show me sources, especially Biblical references and not just official Mormon Church postitions.

    I know Mormons teach about pre existing spirits but this is found nowhere in the Bible so again, on this subject as well, there are contradictions between what Bible based mainstream Chirstianity and Mormonism teach so you have to chose one or the other.

  49. Here are some more contradictions between what mainstream Christianity teaches and what the Mormon Church teaches. So people can choose one belief or the other as they are not the same.

    The Mormon Church teaches that when people are married in the temple they are married for eternity but the Bible teaches otherwise as seen by the words of Jesus Himself.

    From Matthew 22:

    25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”

    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[b] in heaven.

    The Mormon Church teaches that God could have been a man first on another planet but the Bible says that the stars, which planets orbit, weren’t created by God until the fourth day of creation so since there were no stars yet, then there were no planets for God as a man to be on as they didn’t exist yet.

    From Genesis 1:

    14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.

    The following passage shows that God created everything so nothing existed except God before God created everything.

    From Genesis 2:

    1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

    4 This is the history[a] of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

    So choose believing in Jesus Christ as the only way to heaven or choose what the Mormon Church teaches and, as I said, all you have to do is repent and turn away from your sins and believe in Jesus Christ period has he did it all for you on the cross in your place because he loves you that much.

  50. Amen Kent, the "mormon church" which 60 years ago stated that they are NOT Christians has changed her MARKETING PLOY and is attempting to mainstream. I have no hatred for mormons or any other people but we must defend Christ at all costs.

    My daughter and son in law are bound for hell because of the heretic joseph smith and the charlatans that proffer his false teachings.

    A little open minded scholarly study of history and the efficacy of the real scriptures, not mormon and D&C could open their eyes, however we who are truly converted and followers of the true God and His true Son Jesus Christ know that without the intervention of the Holy Spirit they will remain blind and with ears closed, so we must pray for the conversion of those who have been abused by this cult, that God will save and reveal Himself to them.

  51. What if God reveals Himself to someone and tells them that the LDS Church is where they should be? That's what has happened to me, and continues to happen to a few hundred thousand people each year.

  52. BTW, I just answered the question about Matthew 22 and eternal marriage here.

    I haven't been exposed to every claim against LDS doctrine, and probably won't be in my lifetime, but I've been exposed to quite a bit of it, and so far I haven't seen one claim that couldn't be explained. And most of the time it's pretty easy to find a rational and logical explanation, at least for those who care to look.

  53. Just Someone and Joshua, the thing is there are big differences between the teachings of the LDS Church and mainstream Christianity so people must choose one of the other and it is all about freedom of choice but Joshua, if we are wrong, then all I get is a place in a lower heaven but if we are right, then people who reject being saved by grace alone by the blood of Jesus in their place are in danger of being seperated for eternity from Heavenly Father in outer outer darkness where there is weeping and knashing of teeth.

    LDS people, again do you know for sure that you are saved and forgiven for all of your sins, past and present?

    Well you can know this for sure by believing on the only name under heaven that can save you, Jesus Christ, that he died and rose again on the third day and if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you will be saved (from Romans 10).

    It is all about what He (Jesus)did 2000 years ago and the only thing we can do is believe in Him as, i said in my other posts, you can never live up to the perfection Heavenly Father demands on your own without Jesus no matter how hard you try. Salvation is a free gift, and His yoke is light so accept the gift He gave you and trust in Him.

    John 6:28-29:

    28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    Again, from Jesus' own lips, believe in Him (Jesus) whom He (Heavenly Father) sent.

  54. Joshua, my main point in all of these posts is that there are major differences between the teachings of the LDS Church and mainstream Christianity and explantaions don't change this fact.

    So folks, choose one or the other, period.

  55. I don't know everything, but what I do know is that I'm where God wants me to be, as far as religion is concerned. If you or anyone else feels the same way about your church, I say more power to you. My purpose with this blog is not to pull people away from their religion or church, nor to insult them, nor to give myself grounds to think I'm better than anyone else. My only purpose is to defend my own beliefs, which generally comes down to showing that Mormon doctrine cannot be proven to be false, and therefore may be true.

    Yes, I agree there are some pretty good differences, although I hope all us those of us who believe in Christ can recognize that we're on the same side of many issues confronting society today, and I think that which unites us is greater than that which divides us.

    For the record, I don't believe you're going to a lower level of heaven than I am, because I think you'll have the chance to accept the full truth in the next life if you don't find it here :)

    • THIS AGREEMEET BETWEEN KENT AND JOSHUSA IS THE TYPICAL EXAMPLE OF AGREEING BETWEEN TWO WHITE RACIST BULLSHITER'S KNOWING GOOD WELL THEY ARE BOTH, DON'T BELIEVE IN THE TRUE GOD BUT BELIEVE IN SATAN THE GREATEST EVIL BULLSHITER OF ALL TIME .THIS IS WHY I BE GLADE WHEN HE DIE AND ANY DOG THINK LIKE HIM DIE OFF GOD'S BEAUTIFUL EARTH. yes! I LOVE GOD AND ALL PEOPLE OF GOD BUT I HATE EVIL AND EVIL I DON'T HAVE NO COLOR THIS IS WHY I DON'T CARE WHAT RACE YOU'RE BLACK OR WHITE IF YOU EVIL I DO NOT LIKE YOU..

  56. Joshua, I don't have faith in my church as it is just made up of Human Beings so my faith is in Jesus Christ alone.

    Also we don't have a second chance after we die and the alternative is not a lower heaven but hell, outer darkeness, seperated from Heavenly Father for all times.

    From the Bible, Hebrews 9:

    “JUST AS MAN IS DESTINED TO DIE ONCE, AND AFTER THAT TO FACE JUDGMENT, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

    So the difference is mainstream Christianity teaches that we only have this lifetime to believe in Jesus while the LDS teaches we have chances after we die, another difference to choose between.

    But the good news is you can believe in the true Jesus, who is both God almighty and who came to earth as perfect man to take away the sins of the world and you can be waiting for him after you die if you believe in only Him and not yourself and what you can do. He already did it for you when he died on the cross and you can truly know you are forgiven if you accept this free gift.

    The Bible doesn't teach that Jesus is the brother of Satan who chose good instead of evil as the LDS church teaches, still another difference.

    The Satan of the Bible is a fallen angel, a created being who rebelled against God and that Jesus is God Almighty, the second member of the trinity, who is the creator and not a created being.

    The reason I am telling people this is because I am concerned they are going down the wrong path and followong a different gospel than the true gospel and, believe it or not, I am not trying to prove anyone wrong or put anyone down but just presenting what the Bible, the only true Holy Book, says.

    The Bible says in Galatians 1:8:

    "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

    So aorry, I am not trying to offend anyone but giving the truth in love but, this would apply to the Angel Moroni.

  57. One more thing before I let this topic rest for now, that it isn't about feeling good as no a warm fuzzy feeling in your bosom, doesn't point to the truth, another difference in what the LDS church teaches.

    But if anyone is upset about what I have been posting consider that that very well could be God the Holy Spirit touching you heart and giving you conviction in your heart of the truth.

    All I can say is read the Biblical scrpritures, apart from what your church teaches, I have quoted on your own and decide if what they say is the truth.

    As I said, that while I have the upmost respect for my leaders of the church I attend and I value what they have to say, ulitmately I follow Christ and the Bible and not them and I do question what they teach by reading the Bible to see if it agrees with what they are saying.

    Realize it is God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and The Holy Spirit that matters not a particular church, God almighty, three persons one God.

  58. I pray people of the LDS chruch have their eyes opened by the Holy Spirit and follow the true Jesus Christ of the Bible. Below is a link that explains the differences in the teachings of the LDS church and mainstream Christianity that I have been trying to convey with my posts but it is done better than I have done.

    So read the article from BibleBelievers.net and make up your own mind.

    http://www.biblebelievers.net/Cults/Mormonism/kjc

    So you have to choose one belief or the other because, as even Joshua here agrees, they are not one and the same.

  59. Some more differences between the teachings of the LDS church and mainstream Chirstianity:

    Isn't it true that LDS church members all want to be able to partake in their Temple and the bishops sit in judgement of whether or not a person is worthy, that they can somehow judge what is in a person's heart?

    But in mainstream Christianity we see that only God can truly see what is in a person's heart, not man. So those bishops can't truly judge what is in your heart.

    1 Kings 8:39:

    "then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know, for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men"

    Also, isn't it true that the Temple garments are to ward off evil spriits from taking over spirit children?

    Matthew 8:28-29:

    When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes,there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way. 29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time? 30 Now a good way off from them there was a herd of many swine feeding. 31 So the demons begged Him, saying, “If You cast us out, permit us to go away into the herd of swine.

    So it is clear that demons flee when Jesus is present and we see that Jesus is present when at least two or three are gathered in His name:

    in Matthew 18:19-20

    19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

    So it is clear that if in the LDS Temple people do where special garments to ward of evil spirits, that they would really not be needed if two or more are gathered in His name and if Jesus was truly there as the evil sprits would flee from His presence.

    I know I am not going to gain many friends here by taking on something as sacred LDS as the Temple but realize that in mainstream Christianity there is nothing hidden from us as all we need to know is in the Bible but in the LDS church outsiders like me are probably not supposed to know about the goings on in the Temple. Why keep it secret if it is the truth?

    This is my last post for awhile but I hope and pray people realize the major differences between LDS and the greater Christian community and choose one belief or the other as clealy they are not one and the same and they can't both be true.

  60. If you believe in God that should be enough. Churches are all corrupt, the good and the bad is equal. I can't believe you're all sitting there debating Mormon religion and comparing it to other religions. I rank religion for its corruptness and Catholics & Muslims are at the top. Jews, Buddhists, and Mormons would be at the very bottom. You rarely hear about Mormon corruption. But Catholics on the other hand…don't get me started. Just be nice to others as you want people to be nice to you. Do the right thing instead of the wrong and if there is some kind of heaven after death you just might get there.

  61. A true Christian is a person who first has recognized that they were born into this world as sinful and depraved enemies of God. They learn this through hearing what God has to say about them and then being convicted by his truth rather than by trying to wiggle out of this truth. One must first see themselves the way God sees them:

    Genesis 6:5 "The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that EVERY inclination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY EVIL ALL THE TIME."

    Collosians 1:21 "Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior."

    Hebrews 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God"

    Romans 3:9-20 " What shall we conclude then? ARE WE ANY BETTER? NOT AT ALL! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:
    “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands,
    no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become WORTHLESS;
    there is no one who does good, not even one.” “Their throats are open graves;
    their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
    Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin"

    Ephesians 2:1 "As for you, you were DEAD in your transgressions and sins,"

    Enemies of God deserve ONLY God's wrath both now and in eternity in outer darkness. And since God sees us all as depraved, that's all that we deserve.

    Recognizing oneself the way God see's him is to recognize that his depravity is so deep that he is considered "Dead." What can a dead person do? The answer is nothing. He is dead. Therefore no amount of good works will result in this man being exalted. God's law doesn't demand that we do all we can do, it demands perfection and nothing short of it. To sin just once, to get angry at someone as I am sure this post will make some angry with me, is to be just as guilty as a person who has broken every one of God's entire set of commandments:

    James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

    Someone who sins, who gets angry is as vile as the vilest of offenders.
    God's law doesn't differentiate between sin, human nature, character flaws, bad decisions etc. All of those are deadly serious sins. All deserve God's wrath both now and in eternity. Any argument against what I am saying here is a deadly serious sin also because it is an argument against God not against me. It is enough of a sin to condemn the one who says it to an eternity in outer darkness if he won't allow himself to be convicted of the truth about himself by God's word and instead chooses to fight against God's word. Only a person who loves depravity would continue to argue against the sure and certain truths of God's word.

    The LDS church teaches that man can climb up the ladder to exaltation. The Bible says you are DEAD. You can't do anything. Without faith it is impossible to please God. One person stated not to judge the LDS church. However that person does not understand what Jesus intended when he said do not judge. If you will notice, right after that Jesus told people not to judge he proceeded to make judgements. He called the people pigs, dogs, hypocrites, ferocious wolves and false prophets. Jesus most definately judged the false religion of the pharisees. And you can be sure that many of those same kinds of people will have much to say after this post as well. Don't listen to them, listen to God.

    But to those of you who believe what God says about you in his word and are convicted by it, there is hope for you! A hope that doesn't fade away with every sin in your life. For you, God has in store a peace that surpasses all understanding.

    God has forgiven all of your sins in Christ! You have already been forgiven even IN YOUR SINS!

    Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that JUSTIFIETH THE UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness."

    Romans 5:8 " But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

    Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

    Collosians 1:22 "But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—"

    And since Christ has made you holy in his sight, without blemish, and free from accusation, you can know right now that you will be exalted into the celestial kingdom insead of having to meet conditions first and living with that fear your whole life!

    John 5:24 "“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be condemned; he HAS crossed over from death to life."

    Believe it! Any Questions?

  62. Kent – Regarding temple garments, I've posted previously about "Mormon Underwear" here.

  63. Kent – Here's a post for ya about Mormon temples and secrets.

  64. I'm interested to know why the information in the article is not quickly found in Mormon theology write ups? It's all very basic and sounds pretty much like Christianity when you read it.?

  65. Joshua, one quick question. Isn't it true that you and your church consider me to be an unbeliever?

    • That's a great question. I think it's worthy of its own post and I'll try to get to that in the next day or two. But the short answer is "yes and no."

  66. Joshua, yes or no? Why don't you give me straight answer? You either believe I am a believer or you don't.

    Clearly the two passages below from Mormon sources paints a picture that they believe I am not a believer and that my church and all other churches that are not Mormon churches are abominations to God. That the Mormon church is the only true church.

    "Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God [i.e.. the Mormon Church] and the other is the church of the devil [i.e.. the Christian Church]; wherefore whosoever belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to that great church; which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." (The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10).

    "…I must join none of them [Christian Churches], for they were all wrong…that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight" (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

    I will flat out tell Mormons that no I don't believe you are true believers and that you are following another gospel that is not the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the only true Holy book, the Bible.

    So I come here to point out the differences, and there are many between Christianity and the Mormon church, to point out what the Bible says about following another (false) gospel so people have to choose one or the other as no they are not the same.

    The Bible says in Galatians 1:8:

    “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

    • A yes or no answer would be incomplete and therefore inaccurate. If you want to make up your own answers and assume they're correct you have every right to do so, but if you really want to know what I think then I'm afraid you'll have to wait until I have time to type it up.

  67. Are the 'deep truths' of mormonism hidden until one 'matures' in the faith?

    • Marissa, the so-called "deeper truths" are no more hidden from new members than Algebra 2 is hidden from 6th graders.

  68. Thanks for your reply. I'm just trying to understand. Why is the fact that mormons believe in 'baptism of the dead'and a lot of other info etc.. left out of mormon theology sites? Is this information also considered 'sacred' ?

    • I Gene (radio glasses) McCullough got rob out of my dream, by one of your famous billionaire white racist satanic member James Jim Jannard founder of Oakley Inc. Now the founder of Red Digital Cinema Company stole ,and took my United states patent 4856086 radio glasses and became a white racist billionaire just because I am a Eden an American. But tell this white racist of your religion Mormon the game is not over as of yet. In fact, it just began I'm going to sue this evil demon for the sake of righteousness.

  69. Sorry, 'Baptism FOR the dead'.

    • Two reasons; there's a lot of stuff that's more important, and it gets lost in the mix, perhaps. It's not hidden, it's all over the church website, but so is a lot of other stuff. There's all sorts of other stuff that's just as hard to find as baptism for the dead, but it doesn't sound as weird so anti-Mormons don't make an issue of it.

  70. Kent, here's your post on whether Mormons see other Christians as non-believers.

  71. Joshua, I wish you would post links to the points you are making as it would make it easier to see what you are talking about. I did briefly look at a couple of things from the E mail notification but here on your blog nobody would know what your answers to the discussions are.

  72. The links are there. Unfortunately my stylesheet for this blog is kind of messed up so you can't see them, but click on the text and they're there. The redesign of this blog is pending…just hasn't made it to the #1 priority yet…

  73. If you have any faith in the bible, this is a silly argument against the LDS

    John 14:2 clearly states the allegory that supports this LDS statemehnt

    In my Father's house there are many resting-places. Were it otherwise, I would have told you; for I am going to make ready a place for you.

    The allegory is clearly understood by bible experts. In the time written, God's domain was the heaven and earth of our planet EARTH. Now we understand God's doman to include the concept of the universe. In our galaxy alone there are an estimated 400 billion stars.

    The allegory of God reserving a planet for the faithul is no different than God reserving a room or a mansion.

    • Ole, nowhere in the Bible does it state that the earth is God's domain. He gave it to mankind in Genesis 1:28. This is not to say that He cannot influence it, but just that possession was granted to Adam and his descendants. Likewise, Satan (aka Lucifer) is referred to as the 'prince of the power of the air' (Ephesians 2:2); likewise John 3:19-20 and 1 John 1:5 clearly state that God will not abide with this prince of darkness.

      For instance, God cursed the earth in Genesis 3:17, and it would make no sense that He would reside in the same place that He cursed. I think the experts you refer to may be misguided if this is indeed what they claim.

  74. "If you have any faith in the bible, this is a silly argument against the LDS

    John 14:2 clearly states the allegory that supports this LDS statemehnt

    In my Father’s house there are many resting-places. Were it otherwise, I would have told you; for I am going to make ready a place for you.

    The allegory is clearly understood by bible experts. In the time written, God’s domain was the heaven and earth of our planet EARTH. Now we understand God’s doman to include the concept of the universe. In our galaxy alone there are an estimated 400 billion stars.

    The allegory of God reserving a planet for the faithul is no different than God reserving a room or a mansion."

    Then why didn't God say he was reserving planets for people if that is the case?

    After all, the Bible does mention in at least one place, the worlds. So the Bible mentions something that people didn't know about when it was written.

    John 14:2 is saying Jesus is reserving a place in heaven for believers.

    You are putting your own spin on this.

    Also, God's domain remains the same and all we know now it that God's creation is a lot bigger then we thought it was and just because we found out there are other planets that we didn't know about before doesn't mean God is saving one for people to rule over as the scripture just doesn't say this.

    As I have stated all along, there are major differences between what the Bible teaches and what the LDS church teaches if we compare the teachings side by side but anyway the LDS doesn't really have faith in what the Bible teaches as seen by the following statement, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."

    So if the LDS church believed that the Bible is divinely inspired, then they would have faith in what it says as you either believe it is the word of God or you don't.

    Interesting that when the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in the 1940's. the surviving documents contained over 98% of the old testament that agreed with versions that have been handed down over the centuries with just very minor differences that didn't effect the meaning of the text.

    Those texts are over 2000 years old and are dated before the time of Christ so what evidence is there that they were mis-translated since then?

    Compare that with the Book of Mormon where Joseph Smith and a couple of his friends say it is transalated correctly but with no manuspripts in the original language to compare it to and it is less than 200 years old.

    Besides if the LDS church believed it to be the word of God, then why do they teach things that are different that what it teaches?

    For example, in several places it says that "God is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

    So if God doesn't change, then He has always been God and he couldn't have been a man first.

  75. Kent

    You asked "Then why didn’t God say he was reserving planets for people if that is the case?"

    You might as well ask why Jesus spoke in parables or used metaphors at all instead of just being perfectly straightforward about everything.

    "So if the LDS church believed that the Bible is divinely inspired, then they would have faith in what it says as you either believe it is the word of God or you don’t."

    Mormons believe the Bible writings, as they came from the pens of the authors, were divinely inspired. We do not believe that everyone over the centuries who has copied or translated the Bible has been divinely inspired.

    Regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls, two points:

    1. Nowhere do Mormons say what percentage of the Bible has been tampered with. But if it's just 2%, that's still enough to change quite a bit. A word here, a word there, and suddenly the true meaning of an entire chapter can be lost.

    2. The Dead Sea Scrolls are not guaranteed 100% accurate copies of the original scriptures as written by the prophets. Here's a post from another website regarding the Book of Mormon and the Dead Sea Scrolls which clarifies this point.

    "Compare that with the Book of Mormon where Joseph Smith and a couple of his friends say it is transalated correctly but with no manuspripts in the original language to compare it to and it is less than 200 years old."

    So the Book of Mormon has only been around for 200 years, what of it? Does that prove it's not true? At some point the Bible had only been around for 200 years as well. We also have no original manuscripts of the Bible, just as we have none for the Book of Mormon. But we can know both are true by praying to God and asking.

    Regarding God being the same yesterday, today, and forever, I've got a post entitled Do Mormons believe God changes? you may want to read.

    But the overall theme of your comment Kent can be summed up by your statement "You are putting your own spin on this." Sure Ole Christensen is. But so are you. You believe in your interpretation of the Bible, and we believe in ours. If the Bible were sufficient to eliminate such discrepancies of interpretation, then there would be no disagreement between us. Since there is, then we see that logically we cannot refer to the Bible only to understand the Bible's true meaning. We must look to other sources to understand the words of the Bible as God intends them to be understood, and the best place to start is by asking God and seeking to communicate directly with him. Throughout the Bible it says "ask and ye shall receive." But if you never ask, or you do not ask with a sincere heart, then you'll never find the truth.

    • Joshua, please note that Kent was comparing a single text verses the modern version of the Bible. In all, there are (I believe) 400,000 errors in the various manuscripts that have been transmitted down. With over 1,500 manuscripts to compare, we can discern through a process known as textual criticism what the original most likely said.

      Of the 400,000 errors, 75% of those are known as the movable Ka, an accent used in Greek. The equivalent of this error in English would be the difference between saying 'a apple' and 'an apple' – it makes no difference to the meaning of the text.

      That said, there are some larger chunks that are not found in the earliest (and thus most likely accurate) texts, most notably the adulteress at the well and the last four verses of Luke. However, they have no basis on the meaning of the texts, and were probably simple typographic errors or margin-writings (as evident in the Bishop's Bible. where explanations would be written in the margins).

      You will have to forgive me if some specific details are not correct, as I am not at my library at this time and am referring to the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel from mere memory. Overall, I trust implicitly what the Bible said and its accuracy. I thank you for this open discussion about the merits and possible flaws of your faith, and I do wish most Christians obeyed the Great Commission as the Mormons do, even if not for the same reasons.

  76. “You are putting your own spin on this.” Sure Ole Christensen is. But so are you. You believe in your interpretation of the Bible, and we believe in ours. If the Bible were sufficient to eliminate such discrepancies of interpretation, then there would be no disagreement between us. Since there is, then we see that logically we cannot refer to the Bible only to understand the Bible’s true meaning."

    There is no spin to, for example, Genesis 1:1 that says, "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." So clearly the heavens (the universe) didn't exist yet until God who predates everything else that was ever created, made everything.

    I don't know about you but my God is powerful enough to do anything and if He can do anything, then why can't he create everything that was ever made?

    Why put limits on God?

    Also, there is no spin to the fact that the sun, the moon, and the stars, which were created on the fourth day of creation, didn't exist before God created them so God couldn't have been a man first on some planet as planets, which orbit stars, hadn't been made yet.

    Genesis 1:14-19:

    14And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years;

    15and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth"; and it was so.

    16And God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.

    17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

    18and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

    19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

    Regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls, the reason why it matches up 98% with the modern old testament is because some parts of it couldn't be retrived as they were damaged beyond repair. For example, the book of Esther wasn't found among these scrolls, likely part of the damaged sections.

    So yes a large segment of the Bible is proven to be translated accurately and any very minor differences were insignificant.

    So again, there are major differences to what the Bible teaches and what the LDS church teaches and people have to choose one belief or the other as no they are not the same.

    Folks take some time to read the Bible by itself without the prism of LDS doctrine and then go back and compare side by side the teachings of both and then decide which was is true.

  77. Joshua, would you agree that using the the Bible on face value as a whole by itself as it is written is on the whole different than what the LDS teaches if you leave out "Book of Mormon", "Doctrine and Covenants", the "Pearl of Great Price," the teachings of Jospeh Smith, other historical LDS church leaders, and current LDS leaders?

    Assuming for the moment for argument's sake that the Bible is translated accurately?

  78. If we assume the Bible was translated and copied perfectly every single time, then yes, there are some discrepancies between the Bible and the other writings Mormons regard as scripture.

    However, most "discrepancies" are merely perceived as being such and are a matter of interpretation. I believe the Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price, the teachings of Joseph Smith, etc. are in perfect agreement with the Bible as the Bible was written by its authors. Any perspective to the contrary represents a misinterpretation of the Bible and/or those other scriptures and is incorrect.

  79. However, most “discrepancies” are merely perceived as being such and are a matter of interpretation.

    But how can it be interpreted that anything existed except God before God created the heavens and the earth?

    As I have quoted from Genesis several times, "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Also, show how it can be interpreted differently than that God created the sun, the moon and the stars, which planets orbit, on the fourth day of creation so planets didn't exist until at least that time if not afterwards.

    Please show specfic examples anywhere in the Bible that say anything differently than what those two passages from Genesis say.

    I don't believe you can make the argument for a different view without the added on views from the various Mormon scriptures and/or the teachings of Smith and other leaders.

    Again please give examples and just don't say that our interpretations are different but show, with supporting evidence, about how and why they are different.

  80. "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

    1. What is "the beginning?" The beginning of the universe, or the beginning of the earth we live on?

    2. What are "the heavens?" The universe, or the night sky as we currently see it?

    3. What does "created" mean? Creation out of nothing, or the organization of existing materials?

    Out of what seem to be a simple 10 straightforward words we end up with all sorts of questions the answers to which are not to be found in the Bible. My objective is not to prove that one or the other is the case on any of these questions, only to show that the Bible by itself does not answer these questions. Thus, I do not need to quote any scripture–it is enough for me to ask the questions to prove my point that there is ample room for multiple interpretations of the words of the Bible.

    However, in order for you to prove your point, you need two things; First, you need to have the original documents of the books of the Bible to verify that what the various versions of the Bible today are correct. Second, even if you had the original documents you would still need a source external to the Bible to know their true interpretation. Without those two items, you cannot prove that your interpretations are correct.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls are not the original documents. Read http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_and_the_D… for more on that point. It is easily possible that the writings from which the Dead Sea Scrolls were created were already corrupted in one manner or another.

    "Folks take some time to read the Bible by itself without the prism of LDS doctrine and then go back and compare side by side the teachings of both and then decide which was is true."

    Have you read the Bible without the prism of the traditional interpretations handed down to you? If you answer "yes" then you are mistaken, because it's impossible. The traditional interpretations of the Bible are so ingrained in our society and culture that we cannot hope to shake them. The only person who can read the Bible without the traditional interpretations is someone who has learned how to read a language in which the Bible is available, but who lives in a culture that is untouched by Christianity.

    "Why put limits on God?"

    Could God microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it? Ha, just kidding.

    We Mormons don't place any limits on God's power beyond those that He himself has said exist (i.e. God is perfect therefore he does not have the power to become imperfect and remain God). We do not see the imperfections of the Bible as a limitation on God's power. If God had wanted the Bible to be a perfect replica of the writings of the prophets and apostles, it would be. But where does the Bible say God wanted such a thing? How do we know that God did not have a purpose in allowing the Bible to become corrupted? Does the Bible ever refer to itself? If a scripture does seem to refer to the Bible, how do we know it's referring to "The Bible" in its entirety and not just the particular book or passage that contains that scripture?

  81. “Have you read the Bible without the prism of the traditional interpretations handed down to you? If you answer “yes” then you are mistaken, because it’s impossible. The traditional interpretations of the Bible are so ingrained in our society and culture that we cannot hope to shake them.”

    It is just reading the English that shows that before He created everything, God existed and nothing else did before He made it.

    So Genesis 1:1 ironically can fit both the traditional mainstream Christian point of view that

    the heavens (the sky above us-our atmosphere, the rest of the universe-outer space, and heaven itself-where God and the angels are) were not created and didn’t exist until Genesis 1:1 but it also fits the LDS model of three heavens (terrestrial, celestial, and telestial) that they also didn’t exist before God created them.

    Again, what possible other interpretation can you get from, “in the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth”?

    By just going by the Bible does it say anything else except “in the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth”?

    So Joshua wouldn’t you agree that if I just go by the Bible and someone goes by only what the LDS church deems accurate in the Bible plus the LDS scriptures and also what LDS church leaders, past and present, teach that the teachings are very different?

    The thing is if I am right and the Bible really is the only revealed word of God and it is accurately translated, then millions of LDS members really are following a different (false gospel) that is warned about in Galatians.

    The reason why I am saying what I am saying is because I don’t want them to be accursed and I am not telling people this to harass LDS members but because I care about them.

  82. "It is just reading the English that shows that before He created everything, God existed and nothing else did before He made it."

    No, that is your interpretation, since that is not what the words say. The word "nothing" is not in those 10 words of Genesis. Nowhere does the Bible explain what "the beginning" is, what "the heavens" are, nor what "created" means. You are rendering meaning to the words of the Bible that they may or may not have. I have already presented various interpretations of those 10 words. What evidence can you provide to prove whether one interpretation or the other is what is meant? If you cannot prove the meaning of those words (and saying "it's obvious" is hardly proof of anything other than an unwillingness to be intellectually honest) then logically you have to admit the possibility that the interpretation you do not agree with may be the correct one. You don't have to admit it is correct, only that it may be correct.

    "So Joshua wouldn’t you agree that if I just go by the Bible and someone goes by only what the LDS church deems accurate in the Bible plus the LDS scriptures and also what LDS church leaders, past and present, teach that the teachings are very different?"

    There's no such thing as "just going by the Bible." We each go by our individual interpretations of the Bible, and there are as many or more interpretations of the Bible as there are people who have read it. So, depending on your interpretation of the Bible, you may find differences between that interpretation and that of the LDS Church. But the question is not whether they are different, but rather, as you say, which interpretation is correct.

    Yes, if you are correct, then Mormons are wrong, and vice versa. There's no debate there. The question is, how does one discover which interpretation is correct? My argument is that the Bible cannot prove itself to be true. An external source of knowledge is required.

  83. Joshua, it would be awesome I think, if LDS and Christians working together can find the answer to your question: "how does one discover which interpretation is correct?"

    *****"What is “the beginning?” The beginning of the universe, or the beginning of the earth we live on?

    2. What are “the heavens?” The universe, or the night sky as we currently see it?

    3. What does “created” mean? Creation out of nothing, or the organization of existing materials?” *****

    What does “the beginning” mean to you?

    What does “the heavens” mean to you?

    What does “created” mean to you?

    *****"If God had wanted the Bible to be a perfect replica of the writings of the prophets and apostles, it would be. But where does the Bible say God wanted such a thing? How do we know that God did not have a purpose in allowing the Bible to become corrupted? Does the Bible ever refer to itself? If a scripture does seem to refer to the Bible, how do we know it’s referring to “The Bible” in its entirety and not just the particular book or passage that contains that scripture?"*****

    Where does the Bible ever give you the impression that God wouldn’t want to preserve his word? What could be the purpose for God allowing the bible to become corrupted? Does the book of Mormon refer to itself? If the BOM does seem to refer to itself, how do we know it’s referring to “the BOM” in its entirety and not just the particular book or passage that contains that scripture?

  84. The thing is that it's not by working together that we discover all truth. Sure, we'll discover some truths, but as long as it's just humans working on their own, then we are like those described by Paul in 2 Timothy 3:7 who are "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." The truth is not found by taking a survey, or a vote (although that's where much of traditional Christian doctrine has come from, ala the votes at the Council of Nicea). Nor is the path to the truth a group effort, but rather an individual quest. The only way to the truth is to have an open heart and mind, and go directly to God and ask him for help finding it, and then let him lead the way.

    "Where does the Bible ever give you the impression that God wouldn’t want to preserve his word?"

    It doesn't, but that's not my point. My point is that the Bible never states that it itself would be preserved with 100% accuracy. Therefore we have to admit that it's possible that it wasn't.

    "What could be the purpose for God allowing the bible to become corrupted?"

    Who knows? Maybe God has hundreds of purposes for allowing such a thing. I can speculate on at least one. Maybe he allowed it so that the real truth-seekers would be divided from those who merely make the claim. That is, there are those who read the Bible and say "I know this is the word of God, but there are some things that just don't make sense." and they keep looking for the answers. Then the Book of Mormon comes along and they read it and say "Ah-ha! Now this all makes sense!" Then there are others who cling to their interpretations of the Bible, and do not recognize the truth when it is presented to them, because their interest is not in the truth, nor God's will, but in safety and security, which they believe their interpretations provide for them. Thus, when Christ judges the world, those who rejected the truth will have little excuse. It will be obvious that they had the chance to accept the truth, but that they rejected it due to pride, fear, etc.

    "Does the book of Mormon refer to itself?"

    Yes, but it doesn't matter for the purposes of our discussion. I do not believe the Bible or the Book of Mormon to be true based on the books themselves, with no external evidence. I know they contain the word of God because God told me so. However, you have stated that you know the Bible is 100% accurate based on nothing but the Bible itself. I am merely making the point that such a thing is logically impossible, since there is no statement in the Bible saying such a thing, and by my interpretation there is not even the suggestion of such a thing.

  85. **"The only way to the truth is to have an open heart and mind, and go directly to God and ask him for help finding it, and then let him lead the way."**

    What if God chose to give us his inerrant word to protect us from Satan? What if that was the only way it could be done, not because he is confined to do it that way, but because that is the only way to keep "us" safe from all the danger associated with Satan, demons etc? Satan and demons can all masquerade as God and lead us astray. Satan can make it appear as though God is answering our prayers. Scripture certainly teaches us that fact.

    IF you had within your own power the ability to preserve your own personal LDS testimony, would you preserve it? If so, why?

    Have you ever tried to examine the gospel message in the Bible with the idea in mind: "what IF this book is inerrant"?

    Thanks for your time.

  86. "What if God chose to give us his inerrant word…"

    If that were the case then I suppose it would have been nice if he would have chosen to tell us he was doing so, so that we wouldn't have to waste our time arguing about whether the Bible is errant or not.

    "Satan and demons can all masquerade as God and lead us astray. Satan can make it appear as though God is answering our prayers."

    So can Satan trick us into misunderstanding the scriptures? If so, how do we know who understands them correctly and who doesn't?

    "IF you had within your own power the ability to preserve your own personal LDS testimony, would you preserve it? If so, why?"

    I'm not sure what you mean, can you clarify?

    "Have you ever tried to examine the gospel message in the Bible with the idea in mind: 'what IF this book is inerrant'?"

    Why would I if God has already told me it is errant? But even if I did, I suppose I'd still arrive at the same conclusion, that the LDS Church is the true church of Christ. In fact, I can be pretty sure of that because I don't know which parts of the Bible are incorrect and which aren't. That is, I can find out by cross-referencing the Bible with the Joseph Smith Translation, but that only covers so much, and I generally don't do that unless there's a specific reason. When I read the Bible, I read the King James Version as it is. And when I read it, 99.99% fits with what I know about Mormonism. If it doesn't, then I'll do some research and occasionally I might discover that the reason a certain part doesn't fit is because it is an error. Most of the time it doesn't fit because I simply misunderstood, and once I understand correctly, then it fits.

    So, bottom line–yes, if all I had available to me was the King James Version of the Bible by which to judge Mormonism, and I assumed the KJV was 100% true, I'm pretty sure I would still reach the logical conclusion that the LDS Church is true. But I can easily see how someone who has been brought up and educated with traditional Christianity would reach a different conclusion. I would argue that this is because traditional Christianity teaches much that is incorrect, and it is only by twisting the meaning of the Bible that traditional Christianity can justify its beliefs.

    Actually I wouldn't argue that, at least not on this blog, since as I have stated, my purpose is not to prove anyone wrong or tear down their cherished beliefs. My intention to show that Mormonism cannot be proven to be false, and therefore may be true. That is my intention because my purpose is to reach out to those who are open-minded and seeking the truth. As long as I can help them keep the door of faith open when it comes to Mormonism, then they still stand a chance of finding the truth they seek. What I want to prevent is those people from closing their minds to Mormonism based on misunderstandings about what we believe. If someone understands Mormonism and rejects it, that's fine. I'm not trying to influence those people. It's those who admit they don't know everything and who are looking for more light and knowledge that I'm trying to reach.

    • i try to understand mormonism but one thing i cant understand is the belief of going to heaven to them and becoming god we were never made to be perfect we can never live up to his perfection how do we become god?

  87. ***"If that were the case then I suppose it would have been nice if he would have chosen to tell us he was doing so, so that we wouldn’t have to waste our time arguing about whether the Bible is errant or not."***

    Since Satan can masquerade as God, what would be a good way for God to tell us do you think?

    ***"So can Satan trick us into misunderstanding the scriptures?"***

    Isn't that exactly what Satan tried to do here:

    Mathew 4:5-7 "Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

    “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone."

    ***"If so, how do we know who understands them correctly and who doesn’t?"***

    How did Jesus respond to Mathew 4:5-7 when Satan tempted Jesus to misunderstand the scriptures?

    Mathew 4:7 "Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test."

    Should we follow Jesus' example and do what he did, when Satan tries to get us to misunderstand the scriptures?

    ***"I’m not sure what you mean, can you clarify?"***

    You have your own personal testimony as a LDS right? If your answer is "Yes", would you make sure that your written testimony wasn't altered if it was in your power to do so?

    ***"Why would I if God has already told me it is errant?"***

    How did God tell you?

  88. "Since Satan can masquerade as God, what would be a good way for God to tell us do you think?"

    I actually don't believe that Satan can do the job very well. I don't believe Satan can produce feelings of peace, for example, which is a primary form of communication between man and God via the Holy Ghost. I think God has ways to communicate through the Holy Ghost that cannot be duplicated by Satan, and I believe these forms of communication are the only way an individual can know what is true with 100% certainty.

    "Should we follow Jesus’ example and do what he did, when Satan tries to get us to misunderstand the scriptures?"

    This assumes you know that Satan is trying to get you to misunderstand scripture. I don't know or understand everything, but I know through the Holy Ghost that the place to learn the true interpretation of the Bible is in the LDS Church. In other words, I know Satan hasn't succeeded in misleading me, at least not where the larger decisions are concerned. How do you know Satan hasn't succeeded in getting you to misunderstand scripture?

    "would you make sure that your written testimony wasn’t altered if it was in your power to do so?"

    Yes, but I'm human and God's ways aren't man's ways, right? I don't know the future, so I make decisions based on whatever the best information is available to me, and it seems to me that it would be best for my testimony to be preserved in its original form. But God knows all things from the beginning, down to the nitty-gritty details, and so he may have seen that allowing the Bible to be corrupted would serve his purposes.

    "How did God tell you?"

    Through the Holy Ghost.

  89. ***"I actually don’t believe that Satan can do the job very well. I don’t believe Satan can produce feelings of peace, for example, which is a primary form of communication between man and God via the Holy Ghost. I think God has ways to communicate through the Holy Ghost that cannot be duplicated by Satan, and I believe these forms of communication are the only way an individual can know what is true with 100% certainty."***

    How do you know with certainty that Satan can't do the job very well? Couldn't Satan produce feelings of peace through our blindness or ignorance easily enough? How do you know that God has ways to communicate that cannot be displayed by Satan?

    ***"This assumes you know that Satan is trying to get you to misunderstand scripture. I don’t know or understand everything, but I know through the Holy Ghost that the place to learn the true interpretation of the Bible is in the LDS Church. In other words, I know Satan hasn’t succeeded in misleading me, at least not where the larger decisions are concerned"***

    I believe with absolute certainty that Satan is misleading you. How can you be certain that it is the Holy Ghost that has given you all this information and not Satan or demons masquerading as the Holy Ghost? How do you know Satan has not misled you? Satan is an expert at misleading people. So what would be a better way for God to communicate to us that the Bible is inerrant that wouldn't be subject to Satan misleading us?

    ***"Yes, but I’m human and God’s ways aren’t man’s ways, right? I don’t know the future, so I make decisions based on whatever the best information is available to me, and it seems to me that it would be best for my testimony to be preserved in its original form. But God knows all things from the beginning, down to the nitty-gritty details, and so he may have seen that allowing the Bible to be corrupted would serve his purposes."***

    FACTS and truth are important and speculation not based on fact or truth can potentially lead us far away from God's truth. So if we are going to say: "God may have seen that allowing the Bible to be corrupted would serve his purposes" will we be speculating or basing that statement on fact and truth?

  90. "How do you know with certainty that Satan can’t do the job very well? Couldn’t Satan produce feelings of peace through our blindness or ignorance easily enough? How do you know that God has ways to communicate that cannot be displayed by Satan? "

    If you had experienced what I've experienced then you would understand.

    "So what would be a better way for God to communicate to us that the Bible is inerrant that wouldn’t be subject to Satan misleading us?"

    Do you believe God is incapable of communicating with us in a way that Satan can't duplicate? Why put limits on God's power?

    "FACTS and truth are important and speculation not based on fact or truth can potentially lead us far away from God’s truth. So if we are going to say: 'God may have seen that allowing the Bible to be corrupted would serve his purposes' will we be speculating or basing that statement on fact and truth?"

    Ah, but what are the facts and what is the truth? I know the Bible contains the word of God because God has told me so, but how do you know? Imagine that someone who had never heard of the Bible or God or Christ just happened across it, and read it. How would they know it was a true book, and not entirely a work of fiction?

  91. ***"If you had experienced what I’ve experienced then you would understand"***

    What is it that you have experienced? Experiences can be decieving. Experiences can be caused by Satan and Demons. How do you know with certainty it's God and not Satan decieving you?

    ***"Do you believe God is incapable of communicating with us in a way that Satan can’t duplicate? Why put limits on God’s power?"***

    There are no limits to God's power and God is incapable of nothing. However, man is highly subject to the deception of Satan therefore God would choose to communicate to us in a way that keeps us from all harm. So what would be a better way for God to communicate to us that the Bible is inerrant that wouldn’t be subject to Satan misleading us?”

    ***"Ah, but what are the facts and what is the truth? I know the Bible contains the word of God because God has told me so, but how do you know? Imagine that someone who had never heard of the Bible or God or Christ just happened across it, and read it. How would they know it was a true book, and not entirely a work of fiction?"***

    For you to say that "God may have seen that allowing the Bible to be corrupted would serve his purposes’" is pure speculation on your part, isn't it? There is a lot of damning false religion out there built on speculation. Do you think your statement is pure speculation?

    Romans 10:17 explains how I know the Bible contains the word of God for it is written: "faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the WORD of Christ." But your telling me that faith doesn't come from hearing the message through the word of Christ, it comes through personal revelation. Why is that? Where is the Bible verse that says: "faith comes from praying to ask if the Bible is true and hearing the answer through personal revelation?

    Since faith comes from hearing the word, anyone reading the word can know it's not a work of fiction.

  92. Faith comes by studying the word of God, praying and striving to follow Christ. The problem is that most people do not understand what faith actually is. it is not a flimsy wish. It is a powerful trust in Christ that moves us to action. If there is no action, there is no faith. "Faith without works is dead".

    A religion that does not require any sacrifice does not have the power to develop the kind of trust that can move mountains. Faith in Christ is a powerful trust that Christ can and will perform miracles in our lives and will save us.

    There are a few things that are required in order to have faith. If we say that we are Christian but make no effort to keep Gods commandments, we will not deeply believe that Christ will bless us. We need to know that we are doing right. Also, if we do not deeply understand the attributes of God (that he is just, merciful, kind, powerful, all knowing, etc.) We cannot have sufficient trust in him.

  93. ***"A religion that does not require any sacrifice does not have the power to develop the kind of trust that can move mountains."***

    The Bible doesn't teach that sacrifice is required, but rahter it teaches us about mercy.

    Mathew 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

  94. If your paradigm is that the bible is the complete handbook of Christianity written to you, then you are definitely locked into only what is referenced there.

    Mathew 9:13 – Christ was speaking to the pharisees, not to us. This was a quotation from Hosea 6:6. Mercy, love, charity, the attributes of Godliness take precedence over sacrifices and ritualistic performances. The religion of the pharisees was one of form, ceremony, rules and sacrifices, a religion that held them aloof from publicans and sinners. If on the other hand they had possesed the pure love of God, they would have viewed publicans and sinners with compassion and mercy.

    It is true that God is merciful but God does not want us to just sit around giving lip service to the great things that have been done in our behalf. The atonement was not made so that we can stop building character and becoming more Christlike. God never told us to stop keeping the commandments. On the contrary, the gospel gives us the power to be better than we are. It is the power unto salvation.

    Too many of us want to believe that there is a God that will save us even though we have no sorrow for our sins or any motivation to change from being a sinner. We think that the road is so easy that we can just continue in our worldliness and God will save us in eternal bliss while those who never heard of Jesus will burn in eternal torment.

    If you want to have the faith that the ancients had, you cannot have it by simply wishing there is a God. An unshakeable, unwavering trust in Christ comes by diligent faithfulness.

  95. Echo, in response to your comments from the 17th:

    "What is it that you have experienced? Experiences can be decieving. Experiences can be caused by Satan and Demons. How do you know with certainty it’s God and not Satan decieving you?"

    I've had experiences that I don't believe can be caused by Satan or demons. I know with certainty because of the nature of the experience. The exact nature of the experience is difficult, if not impossible, to describe accurately, nonetheless those who have had it know what it is. While it is difficult to find words to express, it is not difficult for individuals to have the same experience. All that is required is humility, sincerity, and a desire to know the truth. Perhaps this video helps explain:

    <object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Aup9M5HZawI?version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Aup9M5HZawI?version=3&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></embed></param></object>

    "There are no limits to God’s power and God is incapable of nothing. However, man is highly subject to the deception of Satan therefore God would choose to communicate to us in a way that keeps us from all harm. So what would be a better way for God to communicate to us that the Bible is inerrant that wouldn’t be subject to Satan misleading us?"

    I cannot think of a better way than direct communication, spirit speaking to spirit.

    "For you to say that 'God may have seen that allowing the Bible to be corrupted would serve his purposes’ is pure speculation on your part, isn’t it? There is a lot of damning false religion out there built on speculation. Do you think your statement is pure speculation?"

    I was going to say it's speculation, but I guess it's not, really. Logically, if God allowed the Bible to become corrupted, he must have had a purpose, and that purpose must have included better results than what would otherwise have been attained.

    But even if it is speculation, so what? Speculation is an assumption, a guess, and sometimes assumptions, guesses, and speculation turn out to be the exact truth. I'm not claiming that what I said is true, I'm saying it could be true, because there's no way to prove that it's false.

    "Romans 10:17 explains how I know the Bible contains the word of God for it is written: 'faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the WORD of Christ.” But your telling me that faith doesn’t come from hearing the message through the word of Christ, it comes through personal revelation. Why is that? Where is the Bible verse that says: 'faith comes from praying to ask if the Bible is true and hearing the answer through personal revelation?"

    I did not say that faith does not come from hearing the word. It does. But that doesn't mean it's the only ingredient. Cookies are obtained by using flour, but a cookie made with nothing but flour would be…not much of a cookie.

    Joseph Smith was led to his vision by the Bible and his faith in the word of God. He read in Timothy 1:5 where it says "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." The word of God gave him the faith to go and pray, and ask God what he should do. The result was God and Jesus Christ appearing to the young Joseph, and the restoration of Christ's church upon the earth.

    "Since faith comes from hearing the word, anyone reading the word can know it’s not a work of fiction."

    How does anyone reading the word know that it's not a work of fiction? What tells a person so? Imagine someone who has never heard of Christ, God, or the Bible. They find a Bible, and a copy of the Da Vinci Code. After reading both, how would they know that the events in the Bible are real, and those in the Da Vinci Code are fiction?

  96. The message I got from the video is that the good news that causes all these wonderful emotions these people have is that we have a second chance.

    The message I get from the Bible is so much more powerful and heart warming.

    And that is why I am perfectly content to stick to the Bible alone.

    One thing Mormons and Christians agree on is that no unclean thing can enter God's presence.

    The message in the video is that we can become clean.

    The message in the Bible is that Jesus has already made us clean. It is a message that truly impacts and changes hearts! No other message compares or even comes close!

  97. Peter said:

    "If your paradigm is that the bible is the complete handbook of Christianity written to you, then you are definitely locked into only what is referenced there."

    Peter, the Bible is consistant and any church I attend has to past the test that its teachings are consistent with its teachings while the Mormon church changes.

    The Book of Mormon itself teaches that God doesn’t change, hence God has always been God and He couldn’t have been a man first. So why did Joseph Smith change from the teachings of what he claimed is the word of God and why does your church now teach that God was a man first who became God?

    Mormon 9:9,10:

    “For do we not read that God is the SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND FOREVER, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing? And now if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles"

    Contrast that with Teachings of the Prophet, pp. 345, 346:

    "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . We should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see . . . Here, then, is eternal life — to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you."

    There are just too many contraditions with the LDS Church so I prefer to just go by the Bible as it is consistent and doesn’t change.

    Luke 21:33:

    “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”

    Mormons, do you know that you are truly forgiven for any sins you have committed, past, present, or future and do you feel that what you do is never enough?

    Well, you can know right now and not later that you are truly forgiven by believing on the only name under heaven that can save you, Jesus Christ, that He died in your place, and rose from the dead three days later so that all of your sins will be remembered no more

    So take His gift of grace and trust in the knowledge that He already did it for you 2000 years ago.

    Jesus said in Matthew 11:28-30:

    “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

    Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

    For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

    What better Christmas present could you get to know that from now until forever that you are resting forgiven in the arms of your Savior, Jesus Christ?

  98. "Peter, the Bible is consistant and any church I attend has to past the test that its teachings are consistent with its teachings while the Mormon church changes."

    The Bible is consistent with your personal interpretations of the Bible, not necessarily with God's interpretation of the Bible. Again, there is no way to know what much of the Bible means without external confirmation, and if you reject any source of external clarification that doesn't already conform to your interpretation, then there is no logical way to prove that your interpretation is correct. We believe the Mormon interpretation of the Bible to be the correct one…not that we're saying it differs much from most others. There's quite a bit of overlap, but of course there are rather key differences in certain areas.

    "The Book of Mormon itself teaches that God doesn’t change, hence God has always been God and He couldn’t have been a man first."

    That is your interpretation of what the Book of Mormon says. It does not say that God couldn't have been a man, like us. It says that God never changes. It means that if God says something today, he'll say the same thing tomorrow. He's consistent. His work, his purposes, his objectives are always the same. He's reached perfection, he knows everything, therefore he's not going to change his mind because he discovered some information he wasn't aware of before. That's what the Book of Mormon and Bible both mean when they say God doesn't change.

    "There are just too many contraditions with the LDS Church so I prefer to just go by the Bible as it is consistent and doesn’t change."

    Again, you only perceive contradictions because of your personal interpretation which you cannot prove is correct. We Mormons do not perceive there to be any contradictions between what the Bible teaches and what Joseph Smith taught.

    "Mormons, do you know that you are truly forgiven for any sins you have committed, past, present, or future and do you feel that what you do is never enough?"

    We know we are forgiven for any sins we repent of, and that if we sincerely strive do what God and Christ have commanded then it will be enough and the grace of God, given to us because of Christ's sacrifice, will take care of that which we cannot take care of ourselves.

  99. Joshua said:

    "We know we are forgiven for any sins we repent of, and that if we sincerely strive do what God and Christ have commanded then it will be enough and the grace of God, given to us because of Christ’s sacrifice, will take care of that which we cannot take care of ourselves."

    But Joshua, you don't have to strive to do something or take care of anything yourself except believing in Him as Jesus already did it for you on the cross 2000 years ago. When He said, "it is finished" he meant that all of your sins, past, present, and future are forgiven once and for all.

    John 19:28-30:

    After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

    Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.

    When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

    Like I said, what a wonderful Christmas present that anybody can get to know that they are forgiven once and for all.

    Merry Christmas!

  100. "But Joshua, you don’t have to strive to do something or take care of anything yourself except believing in Him as Jesus already did it for you on the cross 2000 years ago. When He said, 'it is finished' he meant that all of your sins, past, present, and future are forgiven once and for all."

    So we don't have to be baptized, help people in need, refrain from murdering, keep the commandments, or do anything the Bible says we need to do in order to be saved?

  101. "So we don’t have to be baptized, help people in need, refrain from murdering, keep the commandments, or do anything the Bible says we need to do in order to be saved?"

    You good works, not murder, etc, because you are saved not to become saved as the Bible does say that we are saved by believing in Him.

    Romans 10:9-10:

    "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Romans 10:13:

    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    John 3:16-18:

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    So it is clear we are saved by believing and not saved if we don't believe.

    As far as being baptized, people should become baptized if at all possible but remember Jesus can save even without baptism as seen by the thief on the cross who asked Jesus, And he said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

    (Luke 23:43-44)

    The thing is, if Jesus didn't take away all of our sins forever, and not just Adam's but yours, mine, and everyone elses, by His dying on the cross in our place, as we were all guilty and He was innocent, then we would have to sacrifice innocent animals our whole lives, like they did in the Old Testament Temple, to atone for our sins. But He did it and it is finished.

    The thing is we either have to keep the whole law 100% of the time our whole lives or we can accept the grace of the Law of Liberty that Jesus gave to all of us who believe in His name and trust in what He did on the cross for us.

    So take His gift now and know that you are forever forgiven and resting in His arms from now until eternity.

  102. Well, that is an interesting perspective. Of course I disagree on certain points (which are discussed elsewhere on this blog), but I am enjoying learning what you (and I presume many other traditional Christians) believe about these things.

  103. Joshua said: "So we don’t have to be baptized, help people in need, refrain from murdering, keep the commandments, or do anything the Bible says we need to do in order to be saved?"

    There is nothing we can do to be saved. Think of it this way…

    If Jesus is our creditor as the LDS teaches, then we must pay him back. We would then reflect Jesus in our lives by loving others with the expectation of them giving something back to us. We are self-serving. We love others expecting that *WE* will get something in return.

    If Jesus is our substitute as the Bible teaches, and he is not expecting anything back. We would then reflect Jesus in our lives by loving others and not expecting them to give anything back. We are self-less. Serving others for the sake of others and not for what we can get in return. We serve others for what *THEY* will get out of it.

  104. "If Jesus is our creditor as the LDS teaches, then we must pay him back."

    This is a misunderstanding of Mormon theology. We do not believe we must pay Christ back. We believe Christ pays a debt for us that we cannot pay ourselves, no matter what we do. Nothing Mormons do is understood by Mormons as "paying Christ back" nor do we believe it's possible to do so.

    Nor do Mormons love or serve others with the "the expectation of them giving something back to us." That is to say, while we may all do this from time to time, it is not what we aspire to. There are many reasons why we do the right things (in his book Pure of Heart, Dallin H. Oaks focuses on seven reasons why we do what is right), but we believe the best reason to do what is right is charity, or love.

    Just like you, we do not believe Christ is "expecting anything back." However, we believe he is offering us something, and that while he may hold out his hand to us all day, it is up to us to reach out our hand and take his, which we accomplish by doing what Christ has said we must do, that is, becoming like God.

    "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." – Matthew 5:48

    While it takes little effort to be "saved" from Hell and Satan, it takes quite a bit of effort to become perfect like God. It does not happen in this lifetime, except in a conditional sense for relatively few individuals. It requires more than a declaration of belief or faith, and more than going through the motions–it requires nothing short of the sacrifice of all things and a complete dedication to God.

  105. Does the Mormon Church actually teach that we have a second chance at salvation after we die?

    If so, that is a dangerous belief as the Bible says we are judged after we die.

    Hebrews 9:27:

    "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

    Because if we are going to get a second chance after death, then we wouldn't be facing judgement yet.

    We get second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. chances here on earth because God is long suffering but why not take His gift of eternal salvation now while we have the chance instead of waiting until later and finding out the hard way that your luck has run out?

  106. "Does the Mormon Church actually teach that we have a second chance at salvation after we die?"

    No, not really, although I don't blame anyone who's confused by the doctrine on the matter. What is taught is that we all get at least one chance to understand and accept the gospel. If someone does not have that chance here, they get that chance in the next life.

    "…the Bible says we are judged after we die."

    That's exactly what Mormons believe. We do not believe we are judged before we die :)

    "We get second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. chances here on earth because God is long suffering but why not take His gift of eternal salvation now while we have the chance instead of waiting until later and finding out the hard way that your luck has run out?"

    That's what I keep telling you, but you don't listen to me! :)

  107. Joshua said: "This is a misunderstanding of Mormon theology. We do not believe we must pay Christ back. We believe Christ pays a debt for us that we cannot pay ourselves, no matter what we do. Nothing Mormons do is understood by Mormons as “paying Christ back” nor do we believe it’s possible to do so."

    From http://www.lds.org...

    "“‘Then,’ said the benefactor[Jesus], ‘YOU WILL PAY THE DEBT TO ME and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.’

    “And so it was that the creditor was paid in full. He had been justly dealt with. No contract had been broken.'

    And also from http://www.lds.org...

    "Our sins are our spiritual debts. Without Jesus Christ, who is our Savior and Mediator, we would all pay for our sins by suffering spiritual death. But because of Him, IF WE WILL KEEP HIS TERMS, WHICH ARE TO REPENT AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, we may return to live with our Heavenly Father."

    • Allow me to rephrase. If Christ paid a million dollar debt on my behalf, then the best I can do is perhaps pay a dollar of that debt back. There is no paying back Christ in the sense that somehow he is fairly compensated, or that we do not owe him eternally.

      But even this analogy is inaccurate, since that would imply that if I could do a million times that much work that I could save myself which, to my understanding, is not possible.

  108. His terms, according to the LDS quote, are to repent and keep his commandments.

    Do you keep his commandments?

    • I try.

  109. The LDS church teaches, "His terms, according to the LDS quote, are to repent and keep his commandments."

    Echo asked Joshua, "Do you keep his commandments?"

    Joshua answered, "I try."

    But the problem is if we are guilty of even one sin we cannot be in the presence of Heavenly Father as sin cannot be in His presence and there hasn't been a human being alive who has ever lived up to this no matter how hard they have tried.

    James 2:10:

    "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

    But the good news (the true Gospel) is that Jesus took away all of our sins 2000 years ago on the cross if we believe on His name, the only name under heaven that can save us. So we don't have to do it as He already did it for us and the Bible doesn't say that He took away just Adam's sin but the sin of the world.

    John 1:29:

    The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

    So do the work Jesus Himself said for us to do, as shown below.

    John 6:28-29:

    Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

    Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

    I too try to do my best but when I stumble, which I often do, I pray and give it to Him as I trust in what He did for me in my place.

    So it is His rightousness that I put on and not my own and His perfection that God sees because of my faith in Christ and not my own.

    • Yes, like you we believe we are made perfect through the atonement, or through grace. No matter what we do, it is not enough, but after all we can do, the atonement kicks in and takes care of the rest.

  110. The thing is we still sin and Paul acknowledges this showing that by our will in our strength and through our own best efforts, which are totally worthless, we can’t overcome the sin that is in us and without trusting in what Jesus did on the cross in our place we can’t possibly sow to the spirit instead of the flesh which is where our best efforts come from.

    From Romans 7 and 8:

    15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

    16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

    17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

    19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

    20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

    22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

    23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

    24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

    25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Romans 8

    1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Joshua, on your efforts you will never ever make it so why not just take the burden off of yourself and know now that you are truly forgiven and you won’t have to wonder if you have done enough yet anymore but if you totally trust in what Jesus did for you on the cross you are no longer condemned.

  111. "Joshua, on your efforts you will never ever make it…"

    I agree.

    "…why not just take the burden off of yourself and know now that you are truly forgiven and you won’t have to wonder if you have done enough yet anymore but if you totally trust in what Jesus did for you on the cross you are no longer condemned."

    We Mormons believe that the atonement of Christ only applies if we repent of our sins, which is not a one-time thing, but rather a process that does not end in this life. We can receive a sort of "temporary salvation" here on earth, but we can "fall from grace" just as easily, if not quite a bit more easily, than we obtained that grace in the first place.

    Perhaps I should clarify that Mormons are not merely seeking salvation, in the sense that we're trying to escape Hell and Satan. We're not just trying to avoid something bad, we're trying to obtain something good, that is, becoming like God. Although we don't expect to become like him in this life, one of the primary characteristics of someone who is trying to become like God is desiring to have all knowledge, wisdom, understanding, etc. This results in Mormons working quite hard, and perhaps this contributes to many Christians mistakenly believing that Mormons don't believe we are saved by grace.

  112. "We Mormons believe that the atonement of Christ only applies if we repent of our sins, which is not a one-time thing, but rather a process that does not end in this life. We can receive a sort of “temporary salvation” here on earth, but we can “fall from grace” just as easily, if not quite a bit more easily, than we obtained that grace in the first place."

    But the Bible doesn't say we get another chance after we die because if it did wouldn't it say that we are appointed to die once but we still have another chance instead of we die once and then comes the judgement?

    Hebrews 9:27:

    “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”

    You are taking a big chance if in fact we don't get another chance after we leave this world.

    So why not accept His salvation He is offering you now?

    "This results in Mormons working quite hard, and perhaps this contributes to many Christians mistakenly believing that Mormons don’t believe we are saved by grace."

    But if you work for it then it isn't grace.

    My personal opinion is that Mormons don't want to give up the notion that they can do it and that they aren't truly submitted to Christ because of this and that we either sow to the flesh, what we can do, or sow to the spirit, what God can do.

  113. Echo said: "His terms, according to the LDS quote, are to repent and keep his commandments.

    Do you keep his commandments?"

    Joshua said: "I try."

    Here is an LDS quote….

    (Pages 164-165 The Miracle of Forgiveness, President Spencer W. Kimball)

    “TRYING IS NOT SUFFICIENT. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin… It is normal for children to try. They fall and get up numerous times before they can be certain of their footing. But adults, who have gone through these learning periods, must determine what they will do, then proceed to do it. TO "TRY" IS WEAK. To “do the best I can” is NOT strong.

    Even in the initial quote I gave you, his terms are to repent and keep all the commandments. The quote doesn't say: "try to repent and try to keep all the commandments"

    So if you want to do all you can do, all you can do means to fully repent and keep all the commandments. To "try" is weak.

  114. Ironic that even Mr. Spencer W. Kimball could keep all of God's commandments 100% of the time his entire life no matter how hard he tried and how it seems he made other Mormons feel small by them not living up to what he couldn't do himself.

    It seems a common complaint among ex-Mormons that they felt that no matter how hard they tried and how much they did, it never seemed to be enough.

    Well they have found out that their own efforts don't have to be enough as Jesus did it for them 2000 years ago on the cross.

    • I don't know what you're referring to with the President Kimball bit.

      You can claim all you want that Mormons believe they're saved by their own works but it simply isn't true and anyone who believes it misunderstands our doctrine.

  115. Joshua, If God's forgiveness is dependant on your overcoming your sins first, then you are saved by your works. (forgiven BECAUSE of your works).

    • We are forgiven because Christ paid for our sins. But if we reject Christ, then we are not forgiven, and this is what we are doing when we refuse to repent or keep the commandments. God will force no man to heaven.

  116. The LDS Gospel Principles Lesson on Repentance, Chapter 19 claims that you must do works to be forgiven…

    “Repentance is the way provided for us to become free from our sins and receive forgiveness for them… To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D&C 1:32). We are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the Sabbath day holy or obey the Word of Wisdom… First, one repents. Having gained that ground he then must live the commandments of the Lord to retain his vantage point. This is necessary to secure complete forgiveness.” (http://lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-19-repentance?lang=eng)

    Spencer W. Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness agrees with that…

    “Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works – many works – and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and ‘a broken heart and a contrite spirit.’ It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes.” (pages 324-325)

  117. I'm still not sure where you're getting the idea that Spencer W. Kimball ever claimed he never sinned or that he was perfect…oh, ok, I just went up and read Echo's post, which I had missed before since I was reading comments on my phone. Well, whatever. Yeah, it's the "try" vs. "do" debate. It's really a matter of semantics. When I say "try" I mean that it's logically impossible to keep all the commandments all the time by nature of our imperfections. Of course when you're motivating yourself to do something, you don't say you're going to try to do it, you say you're going to do it.

    As for people not feeling up to the task and getting depressed, yeah, that happens, and it's unfortunate, because it's due to a misunderstanding. But misunderstandings will happen, no matter what a leader says. Christ was and still is largely misunderstood. That doesn't mean the source of the words that result in people feeling small is the bad guy, although certainly every leader should strive for clarity, but rather that the person who is depressed needs to change their understanding of things. If they understood the truth they wouldn't be depressed or feel "small".

    But regarding the larger issue of works and grace, it's like this–let's say you want a job as a cook at a certain restaurant. You ask the manager what you need to do to get that job. He says you have to do A, B, and C to be qualified for the job. So you go and do A, B, and C, and then you interview for the job, and you get it. Was it doing A, B, and C that got you the job? No. You got the job because someone started that restaurant and needed someone to fill a position. That's grace. If the position weren't open to begin with, you could do A, B, and C all day long, as well as possibly could be done, and it wouldn't matter. You would never get the job. But even if the job is open, if you don't do A, B, and C, then you don't get the job. A, B, and C are works.

    Make sense?

  118. Joshua said: "When I say “try” I mean that it’s logically impossible to keep all the commandments all the time by nature of our imperfections. Of course when you’re motivating yourself to do something, you don’t say you’re going to try to do it, you say you’re going to do it."

    Point number 1:

    Let me borrow your analogy….

    Since A B and C = obedience to the commandments, to "try" to obey the commandments is not enough. Forgiveness is only granted to those who obey all the commandments.

    For example, if a hospital is hiring surgeons and A B and C = full education and the practical surgical experience that comes with that. For a person to apply for the job as a surgeon stating that he has no education or experience but will "try" to do surgery, is not enough.

    Point number 2:

    It's interesting that you have used an analogy that is about an employer and an employee. The employer pays "WAGES" to the employee. The Bible uses this analogy also and it says: "The WAGES of sin is death"

    Point number 3:

    Your analogy contains no grace. It's not considered grace when someone starts up a restaurant and lays out the conditions A B and C that are required to get the job. Grace and works can't be mixed together…

    Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace."

  119. I think the choice is whether we are the focus of everthing or Jesus is the focus.

    I understand that the Mormon Church never has services on Christmas because they consider it to be a very important day for the family and while our famlies should be important to us, they should not be the most important priority in our lives.

    In fact Jesus said that if people put their famlies ahead of Him, than they are not worthy of Him.

    Matthew 10:37:

    "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

    So shouldn't Christmas be more about Jesus and not so much about our families?

    I understand that families being the most important priority in a Mormon's life has something to do with being sealed in a temple marriage which enables people to reach the highest exalation but I am sealed by something much better, the blood of my savior Jesus Christ.

    So again, which are more important, people (our families) or Jesus Chrits Himself?

  120. Echo:

    Point 1 – "Forgiveness is only granted to those who obey all the commandments."

    This is true if you add the word "complete" before "forgiveness". But as President Kimball pointed out, this may not happen in this lifetime. It may take "centuries", or I would wager millenia, to reach perfection. That we do not attain perfection in every area during this life is not a problem. What matters is that we're moving on the right path, headed towards perfection.

    With regards to my analogy, "try" merely is the admission that none of is perfect. A student may graduate medical school and get the practical experience required to get a job as a surgeon, but this does not mean he had 100% perfect grades nor that he did not make a single mistake during his residency. He may have "tried" to get perfect grades and he may have tried to not make a single mistake during his training, but we use the word "tried" because he did not succeed.

    In our world, we do not require perfection because if we did we would have no doctors. However, God cannot allow us to live in his presence if we are not perfect. Hence the need for Christ, because even if we attain perfection, it does not wipe out what we have already done wrong. Or in other words, no matter what we do, we cannot succeed in living a perfect life. The best we can do is try. That isn't to say we can't be perfect in one area or another. It's not entirely too difficult to not murder. In that thing it's not unreasonable for me to say "I am not going to murder" rather than "I'm going to try not to murder." But other sins are not so easy to avoid. To say "I am going to live a perfect life from this point on and never sin again" is clearly impossible, and is not what President Kimball was saying we should do.

    Point 2 – Did you have a point here?

    Point 3 – You evidently didn't understand my analogy. The point is that the prospective employee, by doing A, B, and C, does not earn a job. He does nothing to deserve it. He has no right to the job. He does not create a job for himself. The job exists independent of the prospective employee doing anything. This is analogous to grace, in that the power of the atonement to cleanse exists independent of our actions. We do not earn, deserve, have a right to, or create it. But just as there are pre-requisites for the job, so there are for attaining the grace that is offered to us, namely faith, repentance, baptism, obedience to the commandments, etc.

    On that note, haven't you even said that it's necessary to believe in Christ to obtain forgiveness? If we can define works as "doing something" doesn't that mean the very exercise of faith in Christ is "works"?

  121. Kent – "I understand that the Mormon Church never has services on Christmas because they consider it to be a very important day for the family…"

    For those Christmas days that have coincided with Sunday, I don't remember services ever being canceled. I do recall Sunday School and other administrative meetings being canceled, but not the sacrament meeting, which is the main reason Mormons go to church on Sundays and the focal point of everything else. While it's not impossible that a congregation here or there in the past may have canceled Sunday services due to Christmas, it certainly appears to be against LDS Church policy today. Here's what the official policy says:

    17.1.4

    Sacrament Meetings and the Sunday Meeting Schedule

    Holding sacrament meetings is a scriptural mandate (see D&C 59:9). Instructions for sacrament meetings are provided in 18.2.2. The Sunday meeting schedule is set forth on page 153. The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve have established this schedule. Local leaders should not alter it.

    In extreme situations, local leaders may cancel Sunday meetings. However, doing so should be a rare occurrence. Examples of situations that may justify canceling meetings include emergency security concerns and severe weather. If possible, a bishop should confer with the stake president before canceling meetings.

    Sometimes an unusual local situation may make it necessary to alter the Sunday schedule for a longer period. For example, a change may be necessary if a meetinghouse has been damaged by fire, flooding, or storm. In such a circumstance, the stake president seeks guidance from the Area Presidency or the Area Seventy who presides in his coordinating council.

    Leaders of very small branches may adapt the Sunday schedule as directed by their leaders, using the Basic Unit Program Guidebook.

    "I understand that families being the most important priority in a Mormon’s life…"

    There is no conflict between the family as a general concept and God or Christ. There may be specific familial situations where there is conflict, such as when some members of a family want to follow God's teachings and others do not, but this is a different topic altogether.

    The LDS doctrine is that in order to become like God, which is the highest level of exaltation, we have to be sealed in the temple to a spouse. This does not mean the family is more important to Mormons than Christ. They're part of the same gospel. It doesn't make sense to compare them to one another as if there were a conflict. That's like saying "What's more important, baptism or Christ?" They're both necessary for salvation, just as both the family and Christ are necessary for exaltation (which is quite different than salvation, by the way).

    Where did you get the idea that family is the most important thing in a Mormon's life? Certainly it is of great importance, but yes, loyalty to God is more important than loyalty to family, although of course ideally there is no conflict between the two. I have never felt any such conflict, although I have seen it in other families, primarily in situations when I was a missionary and I saw families where some of the members wanted to join the LDS Church and others in the family were against such a thing.

  122. Thank you Joshua for clarifying a couple of points, I am trying to learn what your church teaches even if I don't agree with a lot of it. I realized after I wrote my last post that I should have prefaced a couple of points as questions, which is how I meant them.

  123. Point 1:

    You believe complete forgiveness is granted to those who obey all the commandments and that is could take centuries to be completely forgiven.

    We believe that we have certainty of complete forgiveness NOW because Jesus obeyed all the commandments for us.

    The difference between us is that you believe in what you must do, we believe in what Jesus has done.

    Point 2:

    The Bible uses the WAGE analogy to refer to those who trust in themselves and what they must do rather than trusting in Jesus and what he has done for them.

    Point 3:

    Romans 11:6 “And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.”

    When works or conditions are brought into the picture, we are saved by works and no longer by grace. When works or conditions are NOT brought into the picture, we are saved by grace. It's one or the other. We are saved by grace alone or by works alone. The cannot be mixed together.

  124. Correction:

    This: "You believe complete forgiveness is granted to those who obey all the commandments and that is could take centuries to be completely forgiven."

    Should be this: 'You believe complete forgiveness is granted to those who obey all the commandments and that it could take centuries to be completely forgiven."

    This: "The cannot be mixed together."

    Should be this: "They cannot be mixed together"

  125. "The difference between us is that you believe in what you must do, we believe in what Jesus has done."

    We believe Jesus atoned for all our sins, but we believe the atonement only washes away our sins if we accept it. In order to accept Christ's atonement, we believe one has to do what Christ said one has to do, that is, be baptized, repent, keep the commandments, etc. To not do these things is to reject Christ's atonement, and we believe that if you reject his atonement that you do not receive forgiveness of your sins.

    "The Bible uses the WAGE analogy to refer to those who trust in themselves and what they must do rather than trusting in Jesus and what he has done for them."

    So any use of the word "wages" can therefore refer only to bad things? Is it incorrect to ask what are the wages of righteousness? "Wages" is just a neutral word. It can be used in a negative context or a positive one. It's used in the Bible in one place in a negative context. I used it in a positive context. It's just a word with no inherent quality of bad or good.

    "When works or conditions are brought into the picture, we are saved by works and no longer by grace. When works or conditions are NOT brought into the picture, we are saved by grace. It’s one or the other. We are saved by grace alone or by works alone. The cannot be mixed together."

    What does one have to do to be saved? If the answer is "something", then you've got works. If the answer is "nothing", then why bother spreading the word about Jesus Christ?

  126. A main difference between what we believe and what Mormons believe is we believe we only get this lifetime to be forgiven and Mormons believe they still have a chance after they die.

    This is a dangerous doctrine as if we are right and our life on this planet is our only chance, then they would wake up in outer darkness away from Heavenly Father for enternity where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    If we have another chance after our lifetime, wouldn't the Bible say that men are appointed once to die and then they will not yet face the judgement because we still have a chance?

    No it says we die and then comes the judgement.

    Hebrews 9:27:

    "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

    So I can see how some people in the Mormon Church might not even try to follow God's commandments as, after all, they still have another chance after they die which is just the opposite of what we see as a problem with Mormons in that they have to do works as part of their salvation.

    Joshua, you keep saying it is a matter of interpretation but in reality, if as I have said we just go by the Bible and you go by what your church deems is accurate in the Bible plus all of the Mormon scriptures, plus the teachings of your church leaders and prophets that the teachings are very different which you yourself have acknowledged.

    So what if the Bible that we read today really is the absolute word of God and the only word of God?

    Then you are taking a big chance.

  127. “We believe Jesus atoned for all our sins, but we believe the atonement only washes away our sins if we accept it. In order to accept Christ’s atonement, we believe one has to do what Christ said one has to do, that is, be baptized, repent, keep the commandments, etc. To not do these things is to reject Christ’s atonement, and we believe that if you reject his atonement that you do not receive forgiveness of your sins.”

    We believe that this is a rejection of all that Christ’s has done for you. We believe that when a person reject’s what Christ has done for them, they forfeit the free and complete forgiveness that is already objectively theirs in Christ. Instead of trusting in Christ and the forgiveness he already won on the cross for them, they trust in themselves and attempt to earn forgiveness through things such as you have listed above. Forgiveness can’t be earned, it is a gift from God to all of us. Jesus earned it on the cross and we can’t outdo what he has done by our works. Eternal life is a gift and a gift has no conditions: Romans 6:23 “but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

    “So any use of the word “wages” can therefore refer only to bad things? Is it incorrect to ask what the wages of righteousness are? “Wages” is just a neutral word. It can be used in a negative context or a positive one. It’s used in the Bible in one place in a negative context. I used it in a positive context. It’s just a word with no inherent quality of bad or good.”

    Not all uses of the word “wages” refers to only bad things. For example, God does want us to work for a living to support his church, our families and ourselves. But strikingly, and by no accident, the bible does use the wages analogy in a very negative sense when it comes to salvation unto eternal life. The whole purpose of the wages analogy in scripture is to reveal to us our sinful and BLIND tendency to wrongfully presume that we must DO something in order to gain eternal life. We all believe this prior to conversion not just Mormons, if that’s any consolation to you. I once believed this myself before God opened my eyes and brought me to faith and trust in Jesus alone.

    “What does one have to do to be saved? If the answer is “something”, then you’ve got works. If the answer is “nothing”, then why bother spreading the word about Jesus Christ?”

    These are excellent questions. There is nothing WE can do to be saved. Jesus has accomplished our salvation completely from beginning to finish before we were even born. On the cross he suffered the wrath of God that we all deserve, in our place, on our behalf. He was forsaken by God in our place, on our behalf. He took our death that we deserved upon himself but he didn’t stop there! He also gave us his life! A holy, sinless and perfect life! He took our sin and gave us his righteousness! It’s like an identity exchange. He becomes us (on the cross) we become him (his perfection, his righteousness imputed to us)…

    Jesus has given us HIS righteousness, it comes FROM GOD and not from us. When we believe obedience is a condition, we are establishing our own righteousness…

    Romans 10:3 “Since they did not know the righteousness that comes FROM GOD and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness”

    Righteousness is ours through faith alone and not through our obedience to the law…

    Romans 10:4 “Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.”

    Jesus has become FOR US, our righteousness before God…

    1 Corinthians 1:30 “It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, WHO HAS BECOME FOR US wisdom from God—that is, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, holiness and redemption.”

    The LDS seeks for a righteousness of their own that comes from the law based on the LDS belief that those who repent and obey all the commandments are righteous. We believe we are saved through the righteousness that comes through faith alone in Jesus. His righteousness imputed to us…

    Phil 3:9 “and be found in him, NOT having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, BUT that which is THROUGH FAITH in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and IS BY FAITH.”

    This message goes against the grain for us. It defies our sinful human reason!

    1 Corinthians 1:18 “For the message of the cross is FOOLISHNESS to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

    But it’s true! And God himself has given us the facts, the truth, right there in scripture. The written truth brings with it God’s gift of faith to believe it. And since faith is a gift of God and not something we muster up on our own, faith is HIS work in us, his gift to us, and not our work.

    Even still, we aren’t saved “because” of faith, if we were, faith would be a work necessary to gain forgiveness and eternal life. Eternal life is a gift of grace, we are saved because of grace not because of faith, and not by our works. The truth is that we are saved: “through” faith. Jesus already accomplished our salvation before we were even born which is now being poured into our hearts through the faith he has given us from his written word. Faith simply appropriates what was already finished before we were born. Faith doesn’t cause it to be finished.

    Does that answer your questions?

  128. KENT said: "If we have another chance after our lifetime, wouldn’t the Bible say that men are appointed once to die and then they will not yet face the judgement because we still have a chance? No it says we die and then comes the judgement. Hebrews 9:27:“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment”

    Joshua, Kent sounds a warning bell here and I second what he said. The LDS are going to die and to their own ultimate shock, find out that they will be judged for the things they did in THIS life and not the things they do after they die. They will be judged for what they did in their bodies, in this life, and not for what they do as a spirit…

    2 Corinthians 5:10 " For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

  129. Echo – "We believe that this is a rejection of all that Christ’s has done for you."

    You believe that keeping the commandments and doing what Christ has taught us to do is a rejection of all that Christ has done for us?

    "Instead of trusting in Christ and the forgiveness he already won on the cross for them, they trust in themselves and attempt to earn forgiveness through things such as you have listed above."

    Apparently you've misunderstood me. I've specifically said Mormons believe there is nothing that can be done to "earn" forgiveness. That was the whole point of the employment analogy. Doing the prerequisites for a job doesn't "earn" you the job. Keeping the commandments, repenting, doing works, etc., does not "earn" you the power of the atonement. The atonement exists whether we do anything or not. Keeping the commandments, repenting, doing works, etc. is how we accept the forgiveness that was earned by Christ, for us. If we do not do these works, then we are rejecting that forgiveness.

    Regarding all the faith stuff, if having faith doesn't require any action on our part, but is given to us by God, then why doesn't God just give it to all of us and then everyone would be saved?

  130. Kent – "A main difference between what we believe and what Mormons believe is we believe we only get this lifetime to be forgiven and Mormons believe they still have a chance after they die."

    This is not quite accurate. Mormons believe that everyone gets at least one chance to accept the truth. You might get multiple chances here on earth, but if you get zero chances to accept the truth here on earth, you get at least one chance after you die. No second chance–just one chance.

    "This is a dangerous doctrine as if we are right and our life on this planet is our only chance, then they would wake up in outer darkness away from Heavenly Father for enternity where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth."

    It's only dangerous if there isn't a way to find out what is true. But there is. Just ask God.

    "Hebrews 9:27: 'And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment'"

    It doesn't say there is no space of time between death and the judgment. It just says that the judgment comes after death. We Mormons agree that the judgment does not come until after we die. But in between death and the final judgment there is a space of time wherein those who did not have a chance to learn the truth in this life have that opportunity. There's actually a sort of preliminary judgment immediately after death, in that the righteous are separated from the wicked, and remnants of this truth may have caused confusion in traditional Christianity.

    "So I can see how some people in the Mormon Church might not even try to follow God’s commandments as, after all, they still have another chance after they die…"

    Nobody gets "another" chance, as explained above.

    "Joshua, you keep saying it is a matter of interpretation but in reality, if as I have said we just go by the Bible and you go by what your church deems is accurate in the Bible plus all of the Mormon scriptures, plus the teachings of your church leaders and prophets that the teachings are very different which you yourself have acknowledged."

    Yes, your interpretation of the Bible is different than my interpretation. No argument there. The only question is who is correct, and how can one know which interpretation is correct?

    "So what if the Bible that we read today really is the absolute word of God and the only word of God?"

    If it's the only word of God, then there is a flaw in the book, since nowhere in the book does it say that it is the only word of God. And there are actually references in the Bible to other scripture that is not contained in the Bible.

    As for it being the "absolute" word of God, it is, as far as it has been translated correctly. Anyway, Mormons do believe the Bible as it was written by the prophets and apostles to be the 100% pure word of God. We do not see any contradiction between Mormon doctrine and what is contained in the Bible, except for those portions that have been corrupted. We love the Bible, revere it, study it, and see God's hand in its existence.

  131. Echo – "The LDS are going to die and to their own ultimate shock, find out that they will be judged for the things they did in THIS life and not the things they do after they die."

    We do believe we're judged for what we do in this life. Even those who don't know about Christ are judged for what they do in this life. Every time someone is mean, selfish, or contentious, they come under condemnation. The condemnation is greater for the person who knows the commandments of God vs. the person who doesn't, but even the person who doesn't know the commandments still knows that he does wrong in these things.

    But the person who has never heard of Christ does not have the chance to accept or reject baptism, and without baptism cannot be saved. That person who does not have the chance to accept baptism from authorized servants will not be condemned for it. If so, God would not be a just God, but would be partial, sending some to hell and others to heaven through no fault of their own. But each man will be judged for his own sins, and if he did not have the opportunity to accept the truth on earth, he will have that opportunity in the next life.

  132. Joshua said: “You believe that keeping the commandments and doing what Christ has taught us to do is a rejection of all that Christ has done for us?”

    Keeping the commandments and doing what Christ has taught us to do isn’t a rejection of all that Christ has done for us. We believe in keeping the commandments and doing what Christ has taught us to do. But keeping the commandments and doing what Christ has taught us to do IN ORDER TO GAIN ETERNAL LIFE, is a rejection of all that Christ has done for us. WE desire to keep the commandments and do what Christ has taught us to do because JESUS has gained for us eternal life. We do it out of love and gratitude because we have been completely forgiven. We don’t do it in order to earn God’s forgiveness.

    Joshua said: “Apparently you’ve misunderstood me. I’ve specifically said Mormons believe there is nothing that can be done to “EARN” forgiveness.”

    *****

    President Boyd K. Packer in his article: “The Brilliant Morning of FORGIVENESS” (New Era, Apr. 2005, 4) states the following in his article on forgiveness….

    “The gospel teaches us that relief from torment and guilt can be EARNED through repentance.”

    *****

    Joshua said: “Regarding all the faith stuff, if having faith doesn’t require any action on our part, but is given to us by God, then why doesn’t God just give it to all of us and then everyone would be saved?”

    Faith comes through his word. Romans 10:17 “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”

    When God says: Romans 11:5-7 “So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.”

    All people such as yourself have the ability (the gift) to now believe just because of what God has written right here. He wrote that we are saved by grace and NOT by works. However you believe you are saved by grace “and” your works.

    God says in his word: ““Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.” Psalm 32:1

    You now have the ability (the gift) to believe that your sin is covered because that is EXACTLY what the word says. Instead you choose NOT to believe what is clearly written there for you to believe. You instead choose to believe your sin is not covered. The Inspired Version (JST) translates Psalm 32:1 this way:

    “Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and who have no sins to be covered.” Psalm 32:1

    In Romans 4:5 God gives you the ability(the gift) to believe that he has justified the ungodly and that those who believe God has justified the ungodly are considered righteous simply because they believe that. You have the ability(the gift) to believe because that is EXACTLY what God said in Romans 4:5…

    “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

    You instead choose to believe God doesn’t justify the ungodly. The Inspired Version (JST) tranlates Romans 4:5 this way:

    “But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth NOT the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    So God has given you the ability to believe (the gift of faith), but you reject it.

    Hebrew 4:2 “For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.”

    1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

  133. Regarding Elder Packer's quote, it's a matter of semantics. What is meant by the word "earn"? One definition of the word "earn" is "to deserve by one's efforts or actions". Another is "to gain or acquire". Mormons do not believe we deserve the grace of God, nor that our efforts bring the grace of God to us. We do believe that the grace or forgiveness of God is something we gain or acquire. How? By God offering it, and by us accepting it. How do we accept it? Faith, repentance, baptism, works, etc.

    "He wrote that we are saved by grace and NOT by works. However you believe you are saved by grace “and” your works."

    Again, you misunderstand what Mormons believe. I do not believe I am saved by my works. But if I have no good works, if I do not obey God's commandments, then I reject the salvation God offers me.

    "Instead you choose NOT to believe what is clearly written there for you to believe."

    "So God has given you the ability to believe (the gift of faith), but you reject it."

    "…those who heard did not combine it with faith"

    Choose, believe, accept (the opposite of reject), combine with faith, etc. These are all verbs. They imply action. They imply doing something. Are they not works? Again, either we have to do something to accept God's grace, or we do not have to do something. If we have to do something, what is it, or what are those things? If we do not have to do anything, then you shouldn't be worried about my salvation, because I don't have to do anything to be saved anyway. If you say I have to believe to be saved, then you are saying I have to do something, and doing anything, no matter how small, is a form of works, is it not?

  134. Joshua said: "Regarding Elder Packer’s quote, it’s a matter of semantics. What is meant by the word “earn”? One definition of the word “earn” is “to deserve by one’s efforts or actions”. Another is “to gain or acquire”. Mormons do not believe we deserve the grace of God, nor that our efforts bring the grace of God to us. We do believe that the grace or forgiveness of God is something we gain or acquire. How? By God offering it, and by us accepting it. How do we accept it? Faith, repentance, baptism, works, etc."

    A Gift is defined as: “A gift or a present is the transfer of something without the expectation of receiving something in return” in Wikipedia.

    A Wage is defined as: “A wage is a compensation received by workers in exchange for their labor.”

    I once gave my son the opportunity to earn an expensive Lego set that he couldn’t afford to buy himself. So I gave him a list of things he could do to earn that Lego set. When he did everything on the list, I gave him the Lego set because I was obligated to do so. He “fully” and “completely” earned it by doing everything I asked him to do.

    The fact that he could not afford to buy the Lego set on his own means nothing. He earned that Lego set, he earned every penny I spent by doing exactly what I asked. Granted, I did pay him very generous wages for his work, perhaps more generous than non family members would do, but certainly, the Lego set was not a gift nor can it be considered a gift when there are conditions.

    A generous wage , yes. A gift, no.

    If Eternal life only comes to those who meet the conditions, then Eternal Life is not a gift. God would be obligated to pay us the wage of Eternal life if we met the conditions. The fact that he is generous does not mean it is a gift in whole or in part. It simply means he pays generous wages.

    Of course, we are sinners though and God would be obligated to pay us the wage we earned and the “WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH.” Romans 6:23

    Joshua said: "Again, you misunderstand what Mormons believe. I do not believe I am saved by my works. But if I have no good works, if I do not obey God’s commandments, then I reject the salvation God offers me."

    I didn't say you were save by works but by "grace and works"

    "To gain eternal life, we need both grace and works" ("Tough Topics: Are You Saved by Grace or Works?", New Era, Mar. 2005, 38

    A+B =C

    A is Grace

    B is works

    C is eternal life

    Grace + works = eternal life

    Joshua said: "Choose, believe, accept (the opposite of reject), combine with faith, etc. These are all verbs. They imply action. They imply doing something. Are they not works? Again, either we have to do something to accept God’s grace, or we do not have to do something. If we have to do something, what is it, or what are those things? If we do not have to do anything, then you shouldn’t be worried about my salvation, because I don’t have to do anything to be saved anyway. If you say I have to believe to be saved, then you are saying I have to do something, and doing anything, no matter how small, is a form of works, is it not?"

    We define grace differently than you. Grace by definition is the unmerited, undeserved love God has for mankind.

    If you sin against me and I have truthfully forgiven you and so I then tell you I have forgiven you. It doesn't matter whether you believe me or not. The fact is that "I ALONE" have forgiven you whether you believe it or not. Forgiving you is my work alone. You are not forgiven because of something you do.

    And when I tell you that I have forgiven you, don't those very same words in and of themselves give you the ability to believe I have forgiven you just by my saying them?

    And if you don't believe my words, does that mean I have not forgiven you when I truthfully told you I have forgiven you?

  135. Any analogy falls apart if you take it beyond its intent. "Wages" didn't factor into my analogy at all. The only purpose of the analogy was to show that just as there are prerequisites to be fulfilled in order to receive a job, there are prerequisites to receive forgiveness, and that just because one fulfills the prerequisites for a job, this does not mean they have earned that job, nor deserved it, nor created the job for themselves, just as we do not earn, deserve, or create grace for ourselves. To see any further symbolism in the analogy I gave is to stretch it too far.

    Your gift analogy is interesting, since a similar analogy is commonly used by Mormons, but with some slight yet significant difference. Imagine that instead of telling your son you would give him the Lego set if he did certain things, he came to you and said he wanted to buy it, and you told him "Well then, save up your money and buy it." You give him small tasks to do around the house, you try to help him out, and after a few months he comes to you and says "Daddy, I want to buy the Lego set now!" You take him to the store, and he's got his eye on a set that costs $100.00. He's got 30 cents in his pocket. He realizes he's never going to be able to get that Lego set.

    You say, "Tell you what, you give me everything you've got, and I'll take care of the rest." In a similar way, no matter how hard we try on our own, we can't make it back to God. We're simply incapable. Jesus tells us to give it our best, do all we can, and then he'll take care of the rest.

    Are there conditions for getting the desired object? Sure, your son has to do all he can. Is the Lego set still a gift? Sure. "All we can do" doesn't come anywhere close to being enough. Christ doesn't ask us to do all we can do because it helps him, or because he gets anything out of it. It's nothing to him. He asks it of us because if we're not doing all we can, then we're unworthy of the gift, his grace. The mercy of the atonement cannot be given to us if we reject it, which is essentially what we do when we do not do the things Christ has told us to.

    FYI, "eternal life" is different than salvation. Salvation is being rescued from Hell and Satan. Eternal life is the life God lives. If all one wants is salvation, then not nearly as much is required.

    "We define grace differently than you."

    That may be so. While I agree with you that the grace of God is unmerited and undeserved, if I understand correctly you do not believe that a person can reject that grace, whereas we believe it can be rejected. We believe as you do, that the grace exists independent of our actions, but that forgiveness is not applied to our sins if we reject that grace. We believe the application of grace is conditional upon our accepting it.

  136. "Your gift analogy is interesting, since a similar analogy is commonly used by Mormons, but with some slight yet significant difference. Imagine that instead of telling your son you would give him the Lego set if he did certain things, he came to you and said he wanted to buy it, and you told him “Well then, save up your money and buy it.” You give him small tasks to do around the house, you try to help him out, and after a few months he comes to you and says “Daddy, I want to buy the Lego set now!” You take him to the store, and he’s got his eye on a set that costs $100.00. He’s got 30 cents in his pocket. He realizes he’s never going to be able to get that Lego set."

    My analogy wasn't an analogy of a gift. It was an analogy of wages. It also wasn't an analogy of how we gain forgiveness. It was an analogy of how the LDS gains forgiveness.

    I gave both definitions of a gift and a wage…

    A Gift is defined as: “A gift or a present is the transfer of something without the expectation of receiving something in return” in Wikipedia.

    A Wage is defined as: “A wage is a compensation received by workers in exchange for their labor.”

    You work for wages (forgiveness) we have been already been completely and fully forgiven (gift). The Bible says: “For the wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life.”

    If you were to ask me to paint an analogy of how we are forgiven as a gift rather than a wage, I would repeat the analogy I gave above…

    If you sin against me and I have truthfully forgiven you and so I then tell you I have forgiven you. It doesn’t matter whether you believe me or not. The fact is that “I ALONE” have forgiven you whether you believe it or not. Forgiving you is my work alone. You are not forgiven because of something you do.

    And when I tell you that I have forgiven you, don’t those very same words in and of themselves give you the ability to believe I have forgiven you just by my saying them?

    And if you don’t believe my words, does that mean I have not forgiven you when I truthfully told you I have forgiven you?

    "Are there conditions for getting the desired object? Sure, your son has to do all he can. Is the Lego set still a gift? Sure. “All we can do” doesn’t come anywhere close to being enough. Christ doesn’t ask us to do all we can do because it helps him, or because he gets anything out of it. It’s nothing to him. He asks it of us because if we’re not doing all we can, then we’re unworthy of the gift, his grace. The mercy of the atonement cannot be given to us if we reject it, which is essentially what we do when we do not do the things Christ has told us to."

    Again, there are no conditions to my son being forgiven and there are no conditions to my son having the security and certainty that my home is his home. (Eternal life in the celestial kingdom) Those things remain secure and certain regardless of whether or not he does all that I asked him to do in order to get the Lego set. That IS Real life.

    "FYI, “eternal life” is different than salvation. Salvation is being rescued from Hell and Satan. Eternal life is the life God lives. If all one wants is salvation, then not nearly as much is required."

    Thanks for clarifying. Just so we are on the same page, when I say "eternal life", I am referring to exaltation in the celestial kingdom and spending eternity in the presence of God.
    Of course in my beliefs, that is the only kingdom of heaven there is. The other two kingdoms that you believe in don't exist in my theology nor will you find them in the Bible.

    The LDS agrees with us that no unclean thing can enter God's presence. In the highest level of heaven you have you will stand in the presence of GOD the Father, In the middle kingdom you will stand in the presence of GOD the son, in the lowest kingdom you will stand in the presence of GOD the Holy Spirit. I will remind you that no unclean person can stand in the presence of God. And God's presence is in all 3 of your kingdoms.

    “That may be so. While I agree with you that the grace of God is unmerited and undeserved, if I understand correctly you do not believe that a person can reject that grace, whereas we believe it can be rejected. We believe as you do, that the grace exists independent of our actions, but that forgiveness is not applied to our sins if we reject that grace. We believe the application of grace is conditional upon our accepting it."

    I do believe a person can reject that grace just as I stated above in post 144 following the quote I gave by President Boyd K. Packer.

    When you say: "We believe the application of grace is conditional upon our accepting it, you also mean accepting the terms or conditions that come with it. Am I right?
    When we accept grace, what we mean is that we accept the fact that God has already forgiven us apart from anything we do. And since we have the certainty and assurance that we have been fully and completely forgiven apart from anything we do, we KNOW we HAVE eternal life. We are absolutely certain and secure in that fact…

    John 5:24 ““I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

    You can’t say that can you? You have no certainty or security. For the LDS this verse must be written as follows…

    “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me and repents and obeys all my commandments will get eternal life and will not be condemned, he will cross over from death to life”

  137. Regarding the original topic of this thread, why would God want to give human beings other planets of their own?

    Mankind really has trashed this planet and on our own merit that is what we tend to do.

  138. According to the bible there is only one God and this God was and will always be God.

    Psalms 90:2-Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

    In other words God always was and always will be. From everlasting to everlasting.

  139. David said,

    "According to the bible there is only one God and this God was and will always be God.

    Psalms 90:2-Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

    In other words God always was and always will be. From everlasting to everlasting."

    What David pointed out is backed up by the following verse.

    Isaiah 44:8:

    Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    Matthew 22:30:

    "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

    We can become as the angels of heaven (in the resurrection), if we believe in the true Jesus Christ of the Bible, who worship God but we and they don't become God and never become God.

    That means that I, you, and Joseph Smith for that matter can never become and never will be gods.

    So if the LDS church teaches that we can become gods it is teaching a different gospel that is warned about in Galatians.

    Galatians 1:8:

    "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

    So this would apply to the angel Moroni.

    Besides, if I was a god, then who would I worship, myself?

    So I don't even want to become a god. Anyway, any other god is a false god so even if I wanted to be a god, why would I want to be a false god?

  140. I did not finish reading all the post but this is always the question I want to ask; Why would anyone in their right mind want to have their own planet and universe. That is asking for trouble and a nightmare on top of it. That is not heaven-that sounds like hell. I always want to ask the women of Islam, and mormon women too–what's in it for the women. Do I get 10 virgin men? One man is bad enough. King Solomon in the bible had how many wives? Is he nuts or what? No wonder the world is in such bad shape. The Bible mentions streets of gold. I want green grass and lakes, so I am worried about that. I could care less about gold and gems and diamonds and whatever else. I consider myself a generic christian. I am also a sinner. I am only going to heaven because Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins, past, present and future and He rose from the dead. Only by His shed blood will I receive salvation. I love my mormon friends, my adventist friends, my catholic friends, my muslim friends, and my new age friends; I even love a few of my christian brothers and sister even though I don't like some of their techniques to spread the Good News. My kids unfortuantely don't have Jesus and they probably won't be walking through the pearly gates. That makes me sad but that is their choice and I will get over it. As the commercial says about, chewing tobacco, tanning beds, and drinking and driving, " I hope you make the right decision" Shalom to all, Peace, Blessings , good luck so forth and so on..
    Me signing off from the Cradle of Civilization, the land of Abraham, and the Garden of Eden is probabbly someone around here.

  141. Well I am a straight atheist and I think we seem to be more accepting then most christians. If you dont accept my way you go to hell? Really? Thats sounds like a great religion to me, with that I don't remember reading a lot about hell in the bible. So where do all the good Buddist, Hindui, Jews, Agnostics, Muslims etc go? Were all going to hell, the hell that is really not mentioned in the bible? Most religions says we all go to hell if we don't believe in your/our way, using that formula the population of heaven is 0, or 1 if you count Jesus as a man, or 0 again depending on your faith. We cannot all be right, or wrong, if your a JW 144k make it in, so there may be no vacancy signs already out there making your earthly suffering for not.

    The other argument is if no bible we do we get our morality? If you read the story of Lot giving up his daugther to be raped but the town of Sodom to save two transient angels is your morality wow, as a father I will get my morality elsewhere thank you.

    As a non christian I am sure I am going to "hell" so I guess I will just make the best of this life, as I think everyone else should. If you plan to suffer for some hope of a better afterlife I think you might actually be insane. Because if you trully believed that kill yourself, afterlife is better right? As for Mormons, some of the nicest people I have ever met, and I agree they should make the best of this life, so if I ever came back to a faith why not theirs, no different then any other christian myth.

  142. Rick, the Bible clearly says there is a hell and that Jesus is the only way to the Father in heaven. It is not my way but His way and I merely am passing on the information and it is up to people to decide for themselves if they believe it or not. I hope you take the time to read the following passages, the last two in particular.

    Matthew 10:27-28

    27 “Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. BUT RATHER FEAR HIM WHO IS ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.

    Revelation 20:11-15

    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Bookof Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And ANYONE NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

    Revelation 21:8
    8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[e] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, which is the second death.”

    John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

    John 3:16-18

    16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
    18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

  143. Well Satan thought he could become like God and look where he is. In Hell forever, he is the Devil…. Got it? we can't become gods see, we're just mere humans and when we die we either go to heaven or hell.

  144. Rick, regarding Lot and biblical morality, that is not an example of biblical morality as God would not condone what Lot did in offering his daughters to be raped. Why God spared him and did not spare the people of Sodom I can't really say other than I assume Lot repented of his sin and God had mercy on him while the people of Sodom didn't repent. That is something that is up to God and not us.

  145. Mormonism is a blasphemy and a sin that goes against God, only the holy Bible can tell the truth, not your Book Of Mormon, and not you edited Bible. Buy an online NKJV or a NIV bible and tell me where it says ANYWHERE that says you get to be a God, and where a hell does not exist. A Hell does EXIST, and all you Mormons and other polytheists and atheists will go to hell if you do not believe in the correct teachings. Mormonism is false teaching. You do not get to be a god. You don't get your own universe. Hell does exist. Jesus is not Satan's brother. I hope Mormon's, Atheists and all others alike read this and truly receive your salvation and accept Jesus, a part of the trinity, the only begotten son of our Creator and Father, died so that we may go to Heaven and live an eternal life and not burn in the eternal fire.

  146. And Kent and Samantha and all other Christians that posted above, may God bless you. Rick, I hope that surely, you will find Jesus in your heart. I pray that God will find you and help you onto the path of Christians.

    • I thought Jason Lee was a scientologist?

  147. Also, I'm not trying to hate anybody. I am trying to help the Mormons to stop believing the blasphemy. Joshua, how you referred to that you can only refer to an external source other than the bible, THAT it false. ONLY the bible speaks the truth. ANYBODY, no matter WHAT religion you are, KNOWS that the Bible is absolute truth without doubt. When the Book Of Mormons doubts the accuracy of the Bible, everybody knows that.

    • Well, we've been through this before but I suppose we can do it again. Jason, how do you know the Bible is true? How do you know it contains the word of God and isn't mere fiction?

  148. Here are five reasons religion is bad, and those that practice it ignorent.

    5. Evil:
    The tried and true returns. If you are a Christian you are probably rolling your eyes because you've heard it time and again. Why don't we atheists understand that: [A] God works in mysterious ways, [B] God gave us free will which allows us to commit evil and good, [C] the world is in a fallen state, and [D] Satan represents a real presence in the world? No, we don't understand because: [A] clearly God doesn't work in ways that are too mysterious for you to be unhesitant in calling something "He" did "good" and asking him to do "good" things in the world on your behalf. You can either use moral qualifiers to describe God's actions or you cannot; you can't have it both ways. [B] Not only does this point not jibe with argument "A" (if God works in mysterious ways we couldn't claim that free will is a "good") it is difficult to see how, if free will is good, the using of free will to take away another's free will (i.e. murder) is not intensely problematic in God's eyes. Hitler used his free will to take away the free will of 10 million others. Thus, if, in 1919, God flipped the "become an artist" switch in Hitler's mind, the result would have greatly added to the net amount of freedom in the world. [C] This is a non-starter if the Old Testament is not accurate but, even if it is, a God who holds great-great-great… grandchildren responsible for their ancester's actions does not pass even the bare minimum test of human morality. Without a defined concept of desert, morality is a completely empty concept. It seems God is playing fast and loose on this count. [D] If this objection is forwarded seriously, then it is little more than ditheism (dual theism). Otherwise, in the Christian universe the only power Satan has is that which God lets him have. If you believe in the traditional Christian conception of God you must believe that, ultimately, everything is His fault. Everything. This in a world where rocks fall out of the sky onto innocent people and babies are eaten by dingoes.

    4. The Bible is Not Consistent:
    Many, if not most, Christians would say that the Bible is inerrant. Well, they are wrong. Saying so doesn't require an appeal to history, science, and/or archaeology; it only requires a demonstration that the Bible is incoherent–that is, it contains claims that cannot be true simultaneously. In such instances either one claim is false or they are both false–there is no other possibility. If you wish to throw rationality out the window and claim that a contradiction is possible, then you can just take your ball and go home; you are now playing a game that you can ask no one else to play with you. One example of many: Matthew (1:1-16) claims that there are 27 generations between David and Jesus, Luke (3:23-38) claims 41 generations. These cannot be reconciled. The Bible is not inerrant. QED

    3. Christianity Cannot be the Religion that Jesus Preached:
    The story of Christianity is the story of the beliefs that Jesus professed developing into the religion that professes Jesus. In other words; dogma. It is pure folly to believe that Simon Peter, Thomas, Mary Magdalene et.al followed Jesus because, when he died, they would be able to absolve their sins by believing in him. This later theological construction was created by believers who were searching for a meaning to the seemingly pointless execution of their leader and teacher. Those who originally followed Jesus did so because of his life–because he was an exemplary teacher who radically reinterpreted the Law in favor of inclusion rather than exclusion. Those who now follow Jesus do so because of his death. They turn a man's poignant teachings–his life's work–into a secondary and near meaningless preface to the panacea of his death. We primarily have Paul and John the evangelist (two people who did not know Jesus in his life) to thank for this inexcusable dumbing-down of Jesus' life. With Paul and John's help, what Christianity would become is embodied in the Nicene Creed. Take a look at it. Dogmatic fiat has expurgated everything the man stood for.

    2. The Gospels are not Historically Reliable:
    We need not demonstrate Biblical errors solely through appeals to internal consistency. Doing so only tells us that something in the "word of God" is awry–but not necessarily which word is wrong. In order to perform Biblical analysis that actually broadens our view of what is true and false in the "good" book we need to bring in external sources. From these external sources we learn that the Bible makes claims that cannot stand up to even the most cursory historical examination. In the Gospel of Luke the story is told of a census enacted by the governor Quirinius (Luke 2:1-7). The census, according to Luke, required everyone to return to their ancestral homes to be counted. Thus Joseph, being in the line of David, travels from Nazareth to Bethlehem where–after unadvisedly traveling ninety miles with a woman in the final days of pregnancy–Mary gives birth. The Romans, being meticulous record keepers, did take censuses. However, because of this meticulous record keeping, we know that the only census conducted during Quirinius' governorship took place in A.D. 6-7–a time over ten years after Herod was king of Judea (Luke claims they are contemporaries). However, aside from this fact we can use common sense to realize that the story is totally unbelievable. Luke invents an empire-wide migration for a simple tax registration: millions of people traveling hundreds or thousands of miles to go to their ancestral home of a millennium past (David predates Joseph by approx. 1000 years) in order to sign a simple form. Imagine this happening today. Imagine the cataclysmic disruption of societies resulting from the masses of people crossing boarders and oceans in order to sign a form. This, of course, supposes you could even find your ancestral home of a millennium past. No, something is wrong here and it isn't that the Romans liked to periodically enact sadistically cumbersome legislation. No, I think our evangelist needs to go back to history class. But wait…

    1. The Gospels are not History:
    This may seem like a paltry excuse for the number one spot on a list that makes such a grandiose claim. This reason, however, is the lynch pin. The historicity of the Gospels represents the most crucial element of Christianity–for either its truth or falsity. Christianity claims a specific historical relationship between God and man. If that relationship is historically inaccurate then Christianity is wrong. Or, as Paul memorably put it, "if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." (1 Cor. 15:14).

    As we've seen the Bible is often contradictory and the Gospels are not historically accurate. However, the Christian mistake is compounded by believing that the Gospels are even history–that is that they were written or designed to accurately portray historical truths. The evangelists did not intend their writings to be taken as historical truths. If they could see modern Christianity they would be shocked at the millions of Christians interpreting their writings as historically authoritative. Please don't misinterpret what I am saying. I am not saying the Gospels were entirely made up. I am saying that they were primarily written as myths that forego historical truths (but use many of them) in favor of conveying larger, theological truths that the evangelists believed about Jesus of Nazareth.

    The evangelists poured through the Old Testament and found "prophecies" that predicted Jesus' life. After all, there had to be grander reasons why their great teacher had been executed like a common criminal. In the pages of Jewish scripture they found those reasons. They then consciously wrote their gospels in order to retroactively fulfill prophecy. That this happens at all is beyond dispute. Sometimes, while stumbling over themselves to "fulfill" prophecy, they get it horribly wrong: Mark (1:1-3), using shoddy sources, begins his gospel with "prophecy" that mistakenly conflates two Old Testament versus; Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1. Matthew (1:20-23) uses a mistranslated Old Testament, in which the Hebrew almah, (meaning "young woman") was changed to the Greek parthenos (meaning a physical virgin), as a justification for the immaculate conception. Matthew (21:1-7) so wants to fulfill a "prophecy" from another shoddy source that has combined Isaiah 62:11 and Zachariah 9:9, that he misinterprets the passage–which only speaks of one animal (with subsequent qualifiers)–and has Jesus ride into Jerusalem, in some bizarre act of balance, on two animals. (The other gospel writers are quick to correct this grievous error.) Thus, we begin to see that not only is it a manifest absurdity to believe the Gospels are history, it becomes tenuous to believe they are even accurate.

    Each evangelist had his own interpretation. The theology of the evangelists–and specifically their Christology (the nature of Christ)–developed into more grandiose claims as Jesus' life moved further into the past. If you wish to discover this for yourself, I advise you to successively read the Gospel of Mark (almost universally agreed to be the earliest Gospel written between A.D. 65-70) and the Gospel of John (agreed to be the latest Gospel written between A.D. 90-100) in a single sitting. Ask yourself this question; are they telling the same story? In Mark's Gospel, Jesus largely speaks in parables and evasive third-person proclamations about someone called "the Son of Man." In John's Gospel, Jesus tells no parables and spends most of the time talking about himself, his godly status, and what the future will bring.

    So, here is a brief lesson in the development of the concept of Jesus as God – the transition from focusing on what Jesus said to focusing on who he was. We will only look at the beginning and the end; Jesus' birth and death. Changing the birth and death of Jesus is the most direct route to altering Jesus' status from one contained within a life to one transcending it.

    First the birth narratives. In Mark there is no birth narrative. Jesus' higher metaphysical standing begins when He is chosen at his baptism. This is a story that Jews would have known well. The Old Testament is replete with God adopting servants – sometimes even called "sons" – during a communicative moment in their lives. Mark did not believe Jesus' status differed greatly from God's chosen sons of the past; David, Elijah, Moses, Elisha etc. In fact, in writing for a Jewish audience, he thought it important to strongly align Jesus with the prophets of old. Mark's Christology is thoroughly earthly and – when judged against later alterations – mundane. However, this aspect of Mark is of paramount importance; the earliest Evangelist, the one least removed from Jesus' life, did not know what Christians now "know." It is simply absurd to believe that, of all the things Mark knew about Jesus and with all the time he took to compose and disseminate his gospel, Mark just didn't know that Jesus' birth was a once-in-an-eternity miraculous event. While Mark certainly plays up the figure of Jesus, he was not willing to go that far. When Mark is taken by itself–a gospel lacking a birth narrative and a resurrection narrative (the last twelve verses are almost universally agreed to be later additions), fraught with a persistent "messianic secret" in which no Apostle is able to completely understand Jesus' status, and Jesus' constant, oblique, third person references to a figure called the "son of man" (almost assuredly a reference to Daniel 7:13)–no interpretation even remotely resembling Christianity can be culled from it. Instead Mark fits squarely into well-known traditional Jewish stories of chosen prophets instructing the Jews as to God's will.

    For Matthew and Luke this "Jewish Jesus" would not do. Rather than taking a modern viewpoint that the earlier source should be trusted (that is, if you care about historical accuracy which, as I've said, they clearly did not), Matthew and Luke (written c. 80-90) decide to insert important "facts" into Mark's general narrative that raise the status of Jesus to a figure whose scope extends beyond Judaism. With this in mind, doctoring what he said was not as important as doctoring who he was. Thus, they go back to his birth and tell incompatible, incredible, and clearly manufactured stories of Jesus' miraculous birth to a virgin. In doing so they both establish Jesus' higher ontological status than the prophets of old, and – by bending over backwards to place Jesus in Bethleham – they make sure that Jesus satisfies the prophecy that the Messiah was to come from the "city of David."

    Looking at the differences between the Synoptics, we are also able to see the solution to the oft-mentioned "problem" of Jesus' missing years. Other than Luke's small story of a twelve-year-old Jesus teaching in the Temple, we have no other (canonical) stories of Jesus between birth and baptism. By comparing Mark with Matthew and Luke, the obvious answer presents itself; such stories didn't exist because no one cared about Jesus until he established a ministry. Jesus' "missing years" are no more bothersome than the "missing years" of the majority of Hebrew prophets.

    But John would change everything and one-up all who came before him. Jesus wasn't merely "chosen," "adopted" or created from a miraculous set of circumstances. No, Jesus is something else all together. Feeling it wasn't good enough to go back the the beginning of His ministry or the beginning of His life, John decides to go back to the beginning of time (John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word…") to establish the nature of Jesus. Thus, Jesus has been raised to the ultimate heights; dizzying heights that would have confused and shocked Mark.

    Likewise, the death of Jesus changes dramatically throughout the Gospels. The changes (of which there are many more than these) can be summed up in the three different accounts of the last words of Jesus: Mark 15:34 and Matthew 27:46 "My god, my god, why have you forsaken me." Luke 23:46 "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." John 19:30 "It is finished." The development of Christianity is encapsulated in the move from the utterance of pain, ignorance, nonacceptance, and suffering seen in Mark and Matthew to the statement of acceptance, foreknowledge, and peace that is seen in John. These are incompatible interpretations of Jesus. The character in the gospels may have the same name but it is not the same man hanging on the cross.

    The Gospels are guides to belief written by believers. This is a horribly unreliable way to learn accurate information. When you already believe "The Truth," distortions that you consciously engage in – that you see as promoting "The Truth" – are not seen as lies, but rather, as efficacious ways of getting "The Truth" to the hearts of readers. We don't know why the evangelists believed as they did, but in the gospels they don't give us the reasons they believe, they give us reasons to believe; an entirely different matter. But we do KNOW they invented things. We KNOW that the theological conception of Jesus changed as the believers grew more distant from his life. What Christians believe most fervently (i.e. Jesus being God, appearing after he died, dying for the sins of the world) are concepts that were developed later. They are concepts that did not exist in the earliest generations of Christian belief. They certainly did not exist when Jesus was alive.

    Early Christians invented myths to overcome the "stumbling-block" (1 Cor. 1:23) of the cross. Paul knew that, for the Jews and Gentile Greeks, the execution of Jesus represented a major problem. The "king of the jews" was not supposed to be an executed lowly peasant. The "savior of mankind" was not a common criminal. Over time, theological concepts developed that explained this hang-up. Thus, an executed traitor was turned into a victorious Messiah.

    Conclusion: This article is primarily designed to address the reasons that Christians themselves believe. In other words, I consciously stayed away from having catchall reasons that counter any religion – i.e. "because evolution is true," "because of the Big Bang," "the anti-anthropic principle," "because God doesn't exist," etc. None of these abstract issues reach the core of any religion's believers – particularly not Christians. Christians believe for one, over-arching, epistemologically primary reason; the figure of Jesus represents God's will on this Earth and this story is accurately related in the Bible. In the gospel stories they see something miraculous that they believe to be true. After this belief is established the others will fall neatly into line. They will most certainly not believe in evolution, the big bang, the age of the Earth, etc. All of this simply because they think one paltry Jewish techné (not a carpenter, just a craftsman) did some special stuff.

    In debating Christians, for the sake of argument, I will concede every point they make – that the universe had to have a beginning, that it had to be designed, that God cares, that evil doesn't exist, etc. – except (generally) those based on the reliability of Christian tradition. A Christian's house of cards is usually built entirely upon this foundation. This is what matters to them and, thus, for these purposes, it is what matters to me.

    I am aware of the counterpoints that numerous, well-informed Christians and theologians have made to many of my points. This article isn't meant to be comprehensive but only informative. While none of these reasons is entirely convincing by itself, when taken together they create a strong case for the falsity of Christianity. If not that, then these points at least deserve pause, consideration and research. Most Christians and atheists do not know much of what is enumerated here. If you are a Christian and you are reading this (which I highly doubt) and if you cannot respond to each of these objections with evidence and coherent argumentation–as opposed to with faith and shouting–then you need to start shopping for a new religion.

    • Clarie, it seems to me that you have fallen into the common trap of judging all religions based on your subjective interpretation of those religions to which you have been exposed. I happen to agree with many of your points of evidence, at least in part, if not your conclusions. Of course given your lengthy content it will take me some time to respond but I shall in due course if someone doesn't beat me to it.

  149. Wow, some pretty disturbing stuff concerning quotes from Mormon leaders:

    On October 9, 1859, Brigham Young said,

    “From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent” (Journal of Discourses 7:289)

    “There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God” – Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

    Contrast the words of Brigham Young and Joseph Fielding Smith with the words of the only true savior for mankind and the only true way to eternal life, Jesus Christ Himself. Folks, if some of you think that Joseph Smith has any part in the narrow gate we must pass through, you are sadly mistaken.

    John 14:6
    Jesus saith unto him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

    Joseph Smith was a mere mortal man who is dead and gone, and saying he has anything to do with our eternal destiny is following a different gospel warned about in Galatians 1:8.

    "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

    Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven and God the Father, period!

    • Moses is also dead and gone, but if you reject the ten commandments do you believe you can still go to heaven? All these quotes are saying is that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and spoke the words of Christ, therefore to reject Joseph Smith is to reject Christ himself. That's all this is saying, nothing less, nothing more.

  150. Joshua, but saying that Joseph Smith has anything to to with our enternal life is teaching another gospel that is contrary to Jesus being the only way the Father and I believe saying Smith has anything to do with it is actually rejecting Christ Himself and if He isn't the only way, then his death on the cross means nothing and we make Him out to be liar.

    Also, I can believe what Moses said, even though he is dead and gone, about the ten commandments because no one ever said Moses, unlike Smith, had anything to do with our enternal life as he was a messager telling people about God's law.

    John 14:6 does not say, ' I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me and Joseph Smith,' Again, John 14:6 says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

    Of course you could say that what you are saying is the correct gospel and what I am saying, as shown in the Bible, is not the correct gospel but my point is we have to choose one or the other as no, they are not the same thing.

    But I feel that if Mormons don't believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven and God the Father, then they are treading on dangerous ground.

    And yes when I die I can go to where Jesus and God the Father are without Jospeh Smith's consent because my savior Jesus Christ told me that He is the only way and I believe Him!

    • Joseph Smith has something to do with our salvation just as Moses, Peter, or Paul. We will be judged according to what they said and wrote just as we will be judge according to what Joseph Smith taught. All of then have taught the same thing, which is the gospel of Christ and that salvation comes through no one else.

  151. Joshua, I am not referring to what you would call general salvation, that we are all resurrected by Jesus dying on the cross to different levels of heaven depending how well we follow the teachings of the Mormon church. But that the only salavation, what you would call enternal life and where we would be in the presence of God the Father as well as Jesus Christ. It is the only salvation and the only way there is through Jesus Christ.

    So Mormon,you are being taught a different gospel which I hope you reject in favor of the true gospel of the Bible!

    Again, John 14:6 says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one cometh unto the Father but by me." So, again, Joseph Smith has nothing to do with us being with Heavenly Father when we die.

    Jesus says He is the only way!

    Mormons, read the following passages in the Bible.
    1. Isaiah 53–which foretold of Jesus coming to take away the sins of the world ( a little lengthy for here)

    2. Romans 10:9-10–9
    "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

    But not just being resurrected to at least a lower level of heaven, even if not in the presence of God the Father and Jesus Chirst, but in the presence of God the Father and Jesus Christ or if you don't believe it, eternity in hell.

    3. John 3:16-18–16
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    This is the true gospel, that we either believe in Jesus and go to heaven (only one level) or we don't believe in Him, and we go to hell, not a lower level of heaven as that is what condemned means.

    Mormons, you are being taught a different gospel warned about in Galatians 1:8

    "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

    I hope and pray you believe the true gospel of the Bible but the choice is yours.

    • How do you know that the different gospel referred to in Galations isn't what you believe? How do you know that what Mormons believe isn't the true gospel of Jesus Christ?

  152. Joshua said, "How do you know that the different gospel referred to in Galations isn’t what you believe? How do you know that what Mormons believe isn’t the true gospel of Jesus Christ?"

    Yes, they are different and they both can't be true so, as I have said all along, we have to choose one gospel or the other.

    We either believe the Bible, all of it, is the word of God and what the Bible alone says or we believe what the Morman churches picks and chooses that is reliable in the Bible, the Book of Mormon and other Mormon scriptures, and the teachings of the various Mormon leaders.

    If we who believe that the Bible is all we need are wrong, then we probably still get a place in a lower heaven but if the Mormons are wrong and we are correct, then the Mormons get a place in hell.

    Sometimes, I hope for your sakes, that we are wrong but, sadly, I don't believe that we are wrong.

  153. Are they different, or is it just your interpretation of the Bible that differs from your interpretation of the Book of Mormon? Because I don't see any conflict between the two. I understand why other people do see conflicts, I just don't accept the interpretation used that produces those conflicts.

  154. Joshua, we either believe the Bible is the word of God, all of it, or we don't believe it is the word of God.

    Also, we either believe that Jesus took away our sins (not just Adam's sins) by dying on the cross in our place and we are washed clean by His blood or we don't believe this.

    “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD” (Revelation 1:5). (THE BIBLE)

    OR

    "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . " (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247; see also, vol. 4, p. 53-54, 219-220). (MORMON)

    Also, as I said, we believe one or the other. That Jesus is the only way to God the Father or we can't get there without Jospeh Smith's consent which would mean that Jesus is not the only way to God the Father.

    John 14:6 says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (BIBLE)

    OR

    “From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent” (Journal of Discourses 7:289) (MORMON)

    But I believe that if we don't believe Jesus is the only way, then we are treading on very dangerous ground.

    • Well, first of all references from the Journal of Discourses aren't necessarily the doctrine of the LDS Church, so im not going to mount a spirited defense of anything quoted from that source unless I know it's current doctrine.

      In the case of the first one, I can't defend it because I don't know what it's saying without doing some research. I don't know what covenants it is referring to.

      And in the case of Joseph Smith giving approval, I'm not sure it's doctrine either (FYI, just because something was said by a property of our church doesn't mean it's doctrine), but fit the sake of argument let's assume it is. In that case, you're misunderstanding what it says. It's not saying that we're saved by our through Joseph Smith, and it's not saying that we are saved in any way other than through Jesus Christ, so there's no conflict with the Bible.

      Think of it like taking a jet somewhere. The plane is Christ, and without it, you're never going to reach your destination. But Joseph Smith is the ticket agent. He doesn't replace Christ, he just works for Him.

  155. @ Kent: I find it HIGHLY curious and odd that you seem to know what Christ and God meant. You obviously are well read and educated but do you truly expecr us all to believe that you can discern God and Christ's deepest thoughts?

  156. Sorry, I misspelled (typo actually) expect.

  157. Joshua, I am merely saying what certian bibical scriptures say which I believe are the very thoughts of God such as, Jesus is the only way to God the Father so Joseph Smith has nothing whatsoever to do with our eternal destiny.

    BrighamYoung himself said that his sermons were to be considered scripture.

    "I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom…I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95).

    Apparently Young gave himself the option of correcting any sermon he put out but did he ever say that it wasn't correct that Smith has to give us his consent to enter where Jesus and God the Father are?

    But really the deciding factor is what Jesus Himself said and that is He is the only way to God the Father, period so anyone who says anything differently, be it Smith, Young, or whoever is stating a falsehood!

    I also think that Mormon Church leaders saying that people have to accept Jospeh Smith as a prophet or they can't enter the kingdom of God is a different and wrong gospel.

    “There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God” – Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

    Compare that with the Bible which says if we believe in Him (Jesus), then we are saved but if we don't believe in Him we are condemned, not just sent to a lower heaven, but to the lake of fire (hell).

    John 3:16-18–16

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Revelation 21:8

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Joshua, I do want to thank you for being civil and giving me the opportunity to present my beliefs as others sometimes have not been so to me as I am pretty firm when I take my stand and I honestly am not trying to be disrepectful to anyone but I feel it is my duty to continue to not compromise my beliefs.

    Contrary to what some have thought, but I am not trying to win any debate, just to present truth.

    By the way, some but not the majority of Mormon missionaries I have talked to have gone as far as calling me divisive and I have been called satan by some, Lol! Most of them have been polite though.

  158. Ok, ok, I really would like to discuss all this, but:

    1. It's late.

    2. We're really getting sidetracked from the topic of this post.

    3. It would take some research on my end, more than I have time for at the moment.

    I take much of the blame for getting us sidetracked with my "How do you know the Bible is true?" questions, so I've created a entirely separate, new post for that so that we can address that question separately from Mormon planet issues.

    I'm flattered if you think I'm being civil, but that is my intent so it's nice to get that feedback. I am also just seeking the truth. In addition, half the reasons I carry on these extended back and forth discussions is that I am merely interested in what other people believe, and if I seem confrontational it's just that I really want to know what you and others believe about certain things. I know I can't prove anything to anybody, but I love knowing how people think about things.

    By the way, what do you think of the new design? Hopefully it makes links a bit easier to see.

  159. "The primary motivating factor in the Mormon religion is to attain happiness." – There you have. You interpret the Bible based on what you want and say "I'm going to subscribe to this school of thought over this only because this one makes me more happy than the other despite whether its really what God intended"

    • How does one know what it is that God really intends with the Bible? How can one person say that his interpretation of the Bible is correct and another person's is wrong unless he has communicated with God to get the "one and only true interpretation"?

  160. I think I’m going to convert to the mormon religion, I want my own planet. I’ll see to it that the people who reside there will be technologically advanced. There will be one mad-man though who will destroy the planet, but just minutes before he does a loving mother and father will put their only child in a space pod and send him to a different planet where he will be raised by simple, yet very loving and admirable farmers. Over time they will discover that he will have great powers and will protect the people of this new world from those who wish to destroy it. I will call him Jesus which translates to Kal-el in the language I made up like four seconds ago. This will be awesome.

  161. Bill, Ha Ha! Lol! etc. And who disguised as Clark Kent (no relation) fights a never ending battle for truth, justice, and the American way!

    But I here this "messiah" has recently renounced his American citizenship. Say it isn't so Clark!

  162. I am a christian and this just doesnt make any sense they say that we become a god from god but Jesus was also part man right so it proves there religonn is wrong

  163. “The Mormons believe in many gods – these gods procreate spirit children. Latter day Saints believe that God the Father was and is a man of flesh and bone who once lived on another planet and who progressed to become the God of this world. Mormons say Jesus was not begotten by the Holy Spirit, they say that Father God had physical sex with Mary to produce Jesus (early teaching). The Mormon god is eternally progressing and learning new things. The Mormon Jesus is progressing and may become god of another planet. Brigham Young (who cannot error according to their doctrine) said that, "Adam is our father and God. Adam is the Ancient of Days and also Michael the Archangel" (Later other prophets of the Mormon Church claimed that this inerrant doctrine of Brigham Young is false). The Latter Day Saints doctrine of the trinity is perverted and is nothing like the trinity of orthodox Christianity. They teach that there are three Gods (or four – some say the Holy Ghost is different from the Holy Spirit). Mormons believe that we were preexistent souls before we were born in the flesh. The Latter Day Saints have corrected obvious errors in books that they say are inspired inerrant holy books. There have been 4000 documented word changes in the book of Mormon alone since 1830. The Latter Day Saints rewrote their history to be more credible. Mormons believe that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers. The Latter Day Saints teach the doctrine of universal salvation and that there is no eternal hell except for those who will not progress. Hell only applies to those who leave Mormonism or will not become Mormon in the next life

    Mormons have conflicting theology about the Holy Spirit in their own writings and some refer to the Holy Spirit as an "It". Much of the original book of Mormon that they say was given to their founder by an angel – letter by letter – was plagiarized from the King James Bible errors and all. Since much of the book of Mormon is quoted from the King James Bible, the book of Mormon itself can be used to refute most of the practices and beliefs of Mormonism today. The Latter Day Saints say that their church prophets are on the same level as the old testament prophets and that their doctrine cannot be in error. The Latter Day Saints believe that each head of the Mormon Church wears the mantle of a prophet and that their church doctrine cannot be in error. The Latter Day Saints doctrine of salvation is not by faith in Jesus alone. To be saved one must have faith, be baptized by immersion, keep the teachings of the Mormon Church, do good works and keep the commandments. The Latter Day Saints have said that God was predestined to sin which they equate with the fall into mortality. The fall happened so that more potential gods could come into being and reach god hood. Mormons have said that Jesus married both Mary and Martha and had children. LDS teaches a limited atonement; Brigham Young said "the blood of Jesus was ineffective for the cleansing of some sins. Those that believe it will lose their salvation." The Latter Day Saints idea of needing God's grace is that grace is needed so we may have power to progress and become like God. All Mormons must strive for perfection, sanctification and god hood. Mormons believe that the family unit will endure unto eternity and some go through baptism rituals in the temple to save unbaptised dead. They say when Jesus returns that the Mormons will be gathered together in new Jerusalem in Missouri before the judgment. The Latter Day Saints have three heavens – one for the heathen, one for the Christians and one for good Mormons. When Mormons progress enough to be gods they will get a planet of their own to rule. The Mormons have added to the word of God by adding to the canon their Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Mormon. The books have contradictions with each other and with the Bible

    There is no archeological evidence to support the claims of the book of Mormon and there is much to refute it. The book of Mormon shows lack of knowledge about world history. The book of Mormon contains words that were not in existence at the time it was said to have been written (500 – 600 BC) – words such as Church, Christ, BIBLE etc. Some of the book of Mormon may have come from a work of fiction on the American Indians by Solomon Spaulding but the theology seems to be that of Sidney Rigdon. The book of Mormon contains a quote from Shakespeare – 1 Nephi 1:14b. The Latter Day Saints teach as man is, God once was; as God is, man may become. The prophet Joseph Smith of Mormonism has documented false prophecies. The Latter Day Saints say that all Christian sects are wrong and that all their creeds are an abomination. LDS claims to be the priesthood of Aaron and Melchizedek. The Latter Day Saints have had a history of white supremacy and until recently did not let blacks into the priesthood. The Mormons teach that the American Indian is a decedent of Israel and Semitic, yet scientific genetics teaches that the American Indian is of the Mongoloid race and from Asia.” [and my personal favorite] “Mormons are told to wear holy underwear with mystical Masonic markings to protect them from harm” (Don Koenig, Doctrines of The Latter Day Saints of deception (Mormons/LDS))

    Does this sum up your beliefs becuase this sounds more like mythology than Christianity

  164. not trying to hurt your feelings but it is completely illogical.

  165. Well, like the Bible says "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD."

    Sure, anything we're not familiar with sounds crazy. The entire Bible can sound crazy and illogical to someone who has never read it before. Calculus sounds crazy to someone who doesn't know math. Austrian economics sounds crazy and illogical to Keynesians, and vice versa. The question is not whether something seems illogical, but whether or not it is true, and how one can find out what is true.

    I'm not going to respond to each point because many of them have nothing to do with the topic of this post, and many of them have already been answered in other places on this website. All of them have been answered either on this website or somewhere else. So if you like, please post the comments under the appropriate posts, or if they are not answered anywhere on this site you can post them at http://www.mormondna.org/ask-me-questions/ask-a-m… and if they're good questions, I'll make them into individual posts.

  166. Gav said, "The Mormons teach that the American Indian is a decedent of Israel and Semitic"

    Interesting that I have two great grandparents of American Indian descent and my uncle did a DNA test and it confirmed that part of our heriage, we also of European descent, was from the Mongoloid race and from Asia, but there was no evidence that we are at all related to the people of Israel or that we are of Semitic orgins.

    So I agree with what Gav is saying.

    • The only problem is that what Gav said the Mormons teach is not what is actually taught.

  167. I guess that is what they used to teach but I suppose someone had a relelation and the teaching has been altered to reflect this.

    Notice how subtle changes made reflect contradictions in the teachings of the Mormon church. The following are the introductions to the Book of Mormon contained in the 1981 BOM, the 2004 BOM, and the 2006 BOM. The 1981 BOM says that the BOM, as does the Bible, contains the fullness of the gospel and it also says that the Lamanites are the principal ancestors of the American Indians. While the 2004 edition leaves out the part about the Bible also having the fullness of the gospel. The 2006 edition leaves out both the reference of the Bible also containing the fullness of the gospel but now says the Lamanites are among the ancestors of the American Indians.

    Mormon missionaries have told me, when I told them I have substantial American Indian heritage but have no connection to ancient Hebrews or Semitic people because my family shows no DNA connection, that only some tribes are descendants of the Lamanites. This would be more in line with the current changes to the introduction to the BOM.

    I do challenge Mormons to show any DNA connection of Indian tribes anywhere. I have a feeling that they won’t be able to present any.

    1981 (Salt Lake City, UT: Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)

    The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

    The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.

    2004 (New York: Doubleday First Edition)

    The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

    The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.

    2006 (New York: New Doubleday Edition)

    The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

    The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians.

  168. A few points and a question:

    1. The introduction to the Book of Mormon is not doctrine. Is is not scripture.

    2. Mormon missionaries are mostly 19 year old boys who generally know relatively little about the gospel. I sometimes think it's one of the proofs the LDS Church is true that anyone ends up being baptized by these kids because it is a very real miracle. Suffice it to say, what Mormon missionaries teach is not necessarily the doctrine of the Church. Or in other words, what the missionaries teach is not necessarily what the Church teaches, although that would be ideal.

    3. "I do challenge Mormons to show any DNA connection of Indian tribes anywhere."

    Why should Mormons bother trying?

  169. All one can do is pray for the mormons. Let them enjoy their lives here because they won't be enjoying eternal hell.

    You can't tell a one of them anything they deem to be negative about their religion without them becoming unbelievable defensive.

    They can't see the truth. They are blinded by their cult teachings much like those who have come before them, i.e. Jimmy Jones, David Koresh, the people with the sneakers on waiting for their "alien ship", etc.

    They believe what they're told- bottomline. They aren't told something and then go out and prove it to be truthful, they accept what they are taught as absolute truth.

    Their religion spread racism- just look at how they treated the black people until they figured out that one of their temples wouldn't get attendance because it was in an area of black people! Look into your history mormons what is said by Gav is true and what I've typed is true.

    Not only does your religion promote racism it promotes adultery (polygamy) and don't even get me started on all of the businesses that the mormon church owns. Churches are for worship to God and tithing was to go to God's poor people and the widows, etc. Read the Bible! It wasn't meant for the churches to go out and buy companies.

  170. @windy city – Most of what you're saying is highly subjective ("You can’t tell a one of them anything they deem to be negative about their religion without them becoming unbelievable defensive." — Really? You've said something negative to every one of the 14 million or so Mormons in the world and they've all gotten unbelievably defensive?), but for fun, let's discuss some of your points:

    1. "They aren’t told something and then go out and prove it to be truthful, they accept what they are taught as absolute truth." – Please read Moroni 10:3-5 in the Book of Mormon. This is what missionaries teach all day long–the very first time they meet someone. This is scripture, doctrine, etc. for Mormons. If that isn't saying "go out and prove it to be truthful" what is?

    2. "Their religion spread racism- just look at how they treated the black people until they figured out that one of their temples wouldn’t get attendance because it was in an area of black people!"

    Yes, some of the actions and words of Church leaders and members undoubtedly spread racism. I don't necessarily think that was the intent of the vast majority of Church leaders and members, but it did happen. I don't understand it, but it doesn't mean the LDS Church isn't what it purports to be–the only church with God's authority. If you want to understand more about this matter, go read Blacks & the Mormon Priesthood: Setting the Record Straight by Marcus Martins.

    I might also add that comments made by LDS Church leaders weren't necessarily any more offensive than what was said by many leaders of other Christian faiths. You might want to look at the history of your own church's leaders or those of other Christian faiths and see what they said about blacks. Do you give them equal condemnation, or are Mormons singled out for special treatment?

    3. "Not only does your religion promote racism it promotes adultery (polygamy)…"

    Do you believe that Abraham and other prophets of the Old Testament who had multiple wives were adulterers?

    4. "…don’t even get me started on all of the businesses that the mormon church owns. Churches are for worship to God and tithing was to go to God’s poor people and the widows, etc. Read the Bible! It wasn’t meant for the churches to go out and buy companies."

    If the LDS Church merely took everything it took in each year from tithing and gave it away, there would be at least two negative consequences; 1) in lean years the Church might find itself not being able to adequately provide for the needs of its members, and 2) the Church would be severely hampered from serving the poor. Good investments (of which the Church appears to have made a few) grow over time, providing the Church with more resources to serve the poor than it had before. In other words, the Church's business interests help it to do more for the poor, widows, etc., than it would otherwise be able to do.

    Learn more about what the LDS Church is doing for the poor and needy on their humanitarian services webpage.

  171. I don't know what the policy of the Mormon church is now but back in the early 80's I remember a young couple who were going to be evicted from their apartment, the young man had lost his job and his wife was pregnant, which meant they really needed help, but when they went to the Mormon church, they said they were told they needed to become members of the church before they could get any help. On the other hand, they went to another non Mormon, what would be considered a mainline Chirstian church and they got assistance in finding another job and also finding another place to live as they did end up being evicted and all this with no strings attached.

    It seems, at least at that time, that the Mormons only helped their own. Would Mormons help non Mormons these days?

    I also remember some Mormon missionaries coming by my apartment around that time, back in the early 80's, that is how long I have been talking to Mormons and questioning their faith, and I asked them about blacks not being allowed into the priesthood and they told me, "the twelve apostles had a revelation in that it was time for blacks to be admitted into the priesthood." As I remember it, that revelation was only in the mid to late 1970's, without looking it up. So that is not very long historically speaking.

    S0unds like a response to public pressure rather than any kind of revelation from God to me.

  172. "It seems, at least at that time, that the Mormons only helped their own. Would Mormons help non Mormons these days?"

    Mormons as individuals are commanded to help everyone, regardless, and they do.

    The LDS Church, referring to the organization rather than the individual members, does quite a bit to help those in need, independent of religious affiliation. Specific examples include disaster relief and job training. For more details, take a look at the list of humanitarian activities of the LDS Church worldwide. You can drill down to a specific state in the US and see exactly what charitable projects the Church has been involved with in that region.

    Now, regarding that specific example, I'll have to get back to you. I believe there are certain policies in place to prevent abuse of the system that might apply, but they may have been different in the 80s than they are today. I'll find the answer and hopefully get back to you on it in a timely manner.

    Regarding blacks being able to have the priesthood in the Mormon Church, I can see how it might appear to be a response to public pressure, but if that were the real reason it would have made a lot more sense for the Church to cave years earlier. I don't pretend to understand the matter. I don't know how the practice of not giving blacks the priesthood started, nor why it continued. My understanding is that for decades the leaders of the Church wanted to remove the ban, and whenever they approached God about it the answer they got was "Not yet." When it finally came I think 99.99% of Church members were overjoyed. I'm sure there were some who thought the Church was going off the rails, but there have always been Church members who thought the Church was losing its way whenever something new has come along.

  173. Can I put forward a question? Is there just ONE TRUTH and all others are wrong? Is there just ONE WAY to heaven and all others will go to hell – eternal Hell? And this has nothing to do with one's ethical behavior? Religion isn't really a logical decision. It has much to do with one's culture and upbringing. I think all religions simplify God too much – its a way MAN use to describe GOD, and so, it is unperfect. The Bible was rewritten many many times and interpretations are just that – interpretation and guesswork.

    God is too much big to fit in ANY religion. Its just human arrogance to thing so.

  174. Hi Sergio, I think this post "Do Mormons See Other Christians as Non-Believers?" may answer your question, at least in part.

  175. @WindyCity. I am wondering how on earth you square the bible admonition not to judge with your statement that Mormons universally will go to hell? The Bible teaches that "hell" is a judgement reserved only to God. Since Mormons are not ever mentioned in the Bible, and you have passed this judgement upon Mormons, I can only conclude that you think yourself to be God! Well, all I can say if you are in fact God, it is wonder so many people don't believe in you.

  176. So, lets preface this with I am a gay man.

    Anyone still reading? … All I really wanted to say was the only Book of Mormom (or religious book in general) I have ever WILLINGLY read is the book to the Broadway Musical.

    I know, I know…"groans, sighs"….but hey, I'm gay :-P All us homo's sing and dance and worship Lady Gaga as our modern day prophet…. You know, just like all of you believe you will get your own planet, marry 18 various spouses, and believe all coffee and tea is of the devil. …. Oh, wait? You don't? So don't judge.

    Anyway, the point of the post is that as a COMPLETE non-believer (I have found happiness and contentment in my own life) I am fascinated with religions and people who believe.

    I was reading this site due to my fascination and I simply wanted to apologize for any and all the nasty and rude comments I read on here. I know I am not responsible for them or for the "people" (I use that term lightly) who wrote them, however it does sadden me to see anyway be so disrespectful to one person, or a group of people that they clearly know nothing about. No person or human being should ever treat another with such disregard. And no, God, Jesus, and the Bible did not teach me that. My mother did. :-P

    So my apologies go out to you. Do not let WHATEVER you believe in be shaken by another's nasty words or judgments. Be true to what you are… Mormon, Christian, Jewish, Gay….. Human.

    I have MANY deeply religious friends, Born-Again, Mormon, Catholic, Jewish. And just as many non-believers. I have been invited to baptisms, bar-mitzvahs, and weddings. At court houses and at Church. I have shared their special moments with them and respected their lives and they have done for me. The biggest thing I can ask and tell everyone is believe anything you want. But believe it on your own. Don't assume ANYONE should believe what you believe. Because as long as EVERYONE believes that love is the foundation of everything does ANYTHING else actually matter?

    God, Allah, the Alien Queen, or Morgan Freedman … whoever it is up there, IF anyone if up there, will love you more for respecting, being "friends" or "neighbors" with and "loving" the people who DISAGREE with you. Because its easy to like people you have things in common with.

    • Morgan Freeman, ha!

  177. I'm glad someone appreciates my sense of humor haha…

  178. Apologies, it is not being hateful to point out when the bible says something is wrong and to referrence certain sciptures as support. For example, and this is something that mainstream christians and Mormons would agree on, the homosexual lifestyle is sinful and even though you very likely disagree with this assesement, if we told you why we believe it is sinful based on scripture you are free to decide whether you yourself believes it or not.

    I point things out, such as the example I cited above, because there are people out there who have not heard what the Bible says about the subject of homosexuality who may be involved in this lifestyle and then once they have heard what the Bible says about it, then they can decide if they think it is true or not.

    I would be negligent in my duties as a Christian if I failed to tell warn someone about something that could keep them out of heaven.

    A good example of me telling people something that a lot of Christians assume everyone always knows about it the true story of Easter. About how Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose again on the third day to take away the sins of the world that whoever believes on His name shall have everlasting life because I have asked adults if they knew the story of easter and, surpisingly, some have told me that they have never heard it and that all they ever heard was the pretend story of the easter bunny.

    By the way, when we Christians say everlasting life we mean we will be with God the Father for eternity while Mormons believe that Jesus' death on the cross merely gives them a chance to progress to someday be there.

  179. Can I just say one thing? Woooooowww. Seriously Kent? You have voiced so much opinion on here. All the "hate" comments are from 2 years ago! Get over it! Move on be the better person. If not then just say spiteful and hateful. I am a Muslim and I live in a state full of mormons. We all get along fine and even though we don't agree on everything doesn't mean we need to judge anyone or convince people they are right by simply copying down every word in the bible on this forum. If u really want to be respected then get off this site and act the way you should in your real life. I hope ur not all talk. Oh and to Apoligises- you should be proud of who you are and always will be. I live in a state where gays are called fa***** and are judged. Some of my closest friends are gay and I always have and WILL stand up for them. Everyone has flaws but being gay is NOT A FLAW. it's who they ARE. How dare you Kent even dare to write such things! I would never say you are sinful for trying to convert others and trying to change their beliefs or that having 10 wives is normal. I believe marriage is an eternal bond you should make with one person. If more are involved then it's not a marriage it's a visit to the playboy mansion.

  180. Zenni, all I have done is state that the Bible says homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle as is fornication, hetereosexual relations outside of marriage. The Bible says, "so were some of you" regarding sinful behavior, and even if I have not been involved in homosexual relationships but I have had sex outside of marriage in the past with women, that means I was a fornicator but I have been forgiven because of the blood of Jesus shed on the cross in my behalf.

    Stating Bible verses to make a point is not judging someone but is simply passing on information and it is up to people to decided whether they believe it is true or not.

    I also get along fine with Mormons and, for that matter Muslims as well, and most don't have a problem with me pointing out what I believe and rather than being hateful, I do so because I care about people.

    Ironically saying homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle is something that the moderator of this site Joshua and I would probably agree about but doesn't Islam also state the same thing?

    I mean you can have a reasonable person who believes in Islam who may very well use the Koran to point out what I pointed out.

  181. Zenni – Rock on… My point was simply, "can't we all just get along…?" heheh

    Dear Kent,

    My dear, dear Kent. Where to begin. I will not preach to you what I believe because it is just that. A belief. An act of faith. An opinion. An opinion is exactly what you stated above and I would never dream of pushing my view on you or telling you that you were wrong. So my rebuttal will not attack you or your belief. But rather educate you on what exactly you are talking about.

    Since you enjoy quoting "scripture" here is one for you: "Belief – the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true." – This is brought to you by my favorite prophets: Merriam and Webster. This may be one of the only books held in higher regard and held to be truth more widely than Bible. …Well, with the exception of the Lord Of The Rings of course…

    Notice how FACT has nothing to do with a belief.

    This is why I was posting on the forum to begin with. I was, and am, supporting you and people of your BELIEF. Despite the fact I disagree. I believe in love. Of all people and things. As cliche as that sounds. I believe that you are right. And I am right. And Zenni is right. Isn't that kind of the point of free will?

    My question I would pose to you is: Are you so lonely and insecure in yourself and your life that you need to try and summarize the creation of the world, morality, the past, present, future, and life after ?? You can't be happy in the NOW? You are fulfilled, over-joyed, and blessed in the life that was given to you?? Why can't it ALL be true? Why cant we ALL be right? Why can't I be missing parts, and you be missing parts? Do you really think you know the story init's entirety?

    Do you honestly think it is SO simple that 1 man, or 2, or 35 could have put it all in a Book? The planet is 4.5 billion years old. Those must have been some Cliff-Notes God gave the prophets to fit it into a few thousand pages. I mean the Harry Potter books together are longer and they couldn't fit them in their entirety into 16 hours of film… 4.5 Billion years, including the meaning of life, in a few thousand pages? That is a miracle.

    In fact, I hear it's James Cameron's next project…

    I mean lets be honest here. It took till 1978 for God to change his mind about Black People according to your beliefs. African-Americans weren't allowed to be ordained in your church until 1978… Only 33 years ago…. How many thousands of years passed before he changed his mind…

    Who knows, maybe next year is my year. Maybe 1012 is year God decides Gays are A-OK! … I can't tell the future, and neither can you. In 1977 everyone would have said you were nuts if you thought in 1978 there could be a Black priest. … So who knows…. Not me… and certainly not you.

  182. Apologies, if you have read any of my posts, you would know that I am not a Mormon and it is the Mormon Church who didn't let blacks into the priesthood until 1978 and they were wrong for excluding them in the first place. So, no in 1977 I was not for blacks not being part of the priesthood, in 1978 I was not for it, and today I am not for it. You have to take it up with Joshua, the moderator of this blog, as that is his church.

    There is no absolute truth and truth is relative? Well then why is it wrong to say that someone should not walk up to some innocent person and take out a gun and blow his brains out and is it wrong for someone to steal the purse of a pregnant woman who had all of her family's food money in it?

    Maybe the murderer's truth is that he can kill someone any time he wants to and it is the thief's truth that he can steal that women's money.

    Thou shall not kill (translated not murder in some translations) and Thou shall not steal, sound familiar?

    There are absolute truths otherwise there wouldn't be laws against murder and stealing and the ironic part of people saying everything is relative is by saying everything is relative, and there is no absolute truth, is stating an absolute truth!

    Regarding what the Bible says about homosexuality here are two passages that speak against it.

    Leviticus 18:22

    "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."

    Romans 1:26-27

    26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

    So I have presented the information and, as I said, there may be people out there involved in the homosexual lifestyle who may have never heard what the Bible says about it but the Good News, the gospel, is that if someone repents and turns away from their sin, they can be forgiven and by believing in Jesus Christ, the only way to heaven, they can, with his help, turn away from their old life. It is not an easy road but others have done it so they can do it too and while there will be temptations along the way through prayer the battle can be won.

    Now don't start hating on me for passing on information as I am not the one saying it but at least I have stated what it says and then it is up to others to decide if they believe it or not so I have done my part.

  183. Apologies said, "4.5 Billion years, including the meaning of life, in a few thousand pages? That is a miracle. "

    Yes, that is the point, it couldn't have come down as anything less than a miracle and true miracles, things that happen that are beyond explanation, can only come from God.

    Recently my cousin's wife's co worker had cancer and it showed up in all of the tests but through prayer the doctors can't find a trace of the cancer and they have absolutely no explanation for it not being there. Like I said, true miracles can only come from God.

  184. Apoligises- :) thanks! And I completely agree with you!
    Kent- if you want to make a point then simply state it. Don't preach the bible because honestly I just skip those parts of your comment. Simply copying down words doesn't make me agree with you one bit. Being a Muslim I understand what you mean but I'm not going to call other people sinful because of who they are. They were made this way and everyone deserves to be accepted and not judge. I refuse to agrue with you Kent so stop acting so narrow minded and if you don't wish to then just stop trying to poison other peoples minds by saying that being different and not following a certain way, means your going to hell. You are not god and you have no right to state what you think is sinful.

  185. Mormon's don't sit around dreaming of some planet they may or may not receive. In fact, I have been a Mormon my whole life (34 years) and I have never even heard of the planet thing until this year. What we do know is that we are God's children and that he wants to share all that he has with us if we can prove trustworthy. Whether that means a planet, a universe or just singing on a cloud, we don't really know and at this point it doesn't really matter. All we believe is that through the sacrifice of God's son, Jesus Christ, we can be forgiven of our sins and become more like Him and even return to live with Him some day. As we become more like Christ we feel a genuine desire to help others, to be kind, to learn, to work hard, to develop self discipline and to avoid doing things that Christ would not do.

  186. Kent, you miss the point yet again… So sad really…

    But according to what you say then, if I were to go kill someone, having never gone to Sunday school and knowing "thou shalt not kill" is a commandment then I would be ok… Id get a pass…an "oops, my bad"… Not until after i know about i t am i bound to it. Interesting theory…

    All I really have left to say is "You are a sad, strange little man. You have my putty. Farewell." – Buzz Lightyear 0:38:29 …. Lol

  187. Apoligises- you made me laugh haha xD funny! And your completely right. I couldn't agree with you more

  188. Apologies, I said there is such a thing as absolute truth not that someone who hasn't heard that you shall not murder is allowed to murder.

    By you saying, "why can't we all be right", you are implying that there is no such thing as absolute truth such as Jesus is the only way to heaven but clearly, as shown by laws inforcing though shall not murder, there is such a thing as absolute truth.

  189. Zenni, I am not trying to make you agree with me when I qoute scripture, I am presenting you with the information and it is up to you to read it or not or if you or anyone else does read it, then it is up to you or them to decide if they believe it or not.

  190. I am agnostic, however, I must admit, after reading through these comments, I'm much more leaning toward the mormon perspective. Mostly because of Kent being so hell bent on their demise. It just seems desperate. Entertaining, mind you, but desperate none the less.

    Here's my two cents: Kent. Shut up. You are hurting your cause. You are making good, faithful, upstanding Christians look like douche-bag know-it-alls. We all get that you are very stubborn and will not budge on your beliefs. It's very commendable.

    Those of you who keep arguing with him. Stop. You are feeding the troll. He's been going at it for a year now. What started out as a nice religious discussion has turned into a full fledged religious bash and I don't feel it's what people come here to read about.

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand… I find the concept of man becoming Gods whom create universes with man who become Gods, and so on, fascinating! Brings it into a sort of fractal power set. Allows for the possibility that time isn't linear at all. That'd make a lot physics problems go away, actually. Reminds me more of a sort of eastern mortal coil or eternal round, but with progression. Very interesting. I'll have to ponder this for a bit. I'm glad I stumbled on this and took the time to read it.

  191. Why would anyone be atheist? Living life without believing in god would feel so empty.

  192. I don't see why people think mormon ideas are so crazy. And I hate it when people say we're not Christians! Why would we talk about Christ if we didn't follow his way? (that seemed worded kind of weird)p.s. Kent sucks!

  193. Nathan, good points… I hope you realize I'm not as much feeding the troll as i am poking him with a stick…. There hasn't been a comment I left that Kent responded to that myself and about 8 other people haven't cracked up laughing at…. Entertainment is right!

    That bring said I agree with you. Try and find my first post (early july, tthidbyear) I think you'll like ky original reason for even commenting here.

    Me – I can totally understad why you would say that, for you cannot imaginea life without god in it… "Empty" was the word you use. now try to see it from their point of view, "Why can't your life be full as is? Why do you need more to fill it? Why do you need to believe in something that may or may not exist to get through your day to day life? i find that sad…."

    Now i am not saying I am am athiest or agnostic, I'm just saying those are some of the questions one who is may ask you in return. I am also not saying they are right , or that you are…. Just wanted you to see both sides of the coin…. You can't imagine life without and they may not be able to imagine it with….

    Once again, different strokes for different folks ….

    I personally don't believe either… But my beliefs are less conventional so out of fear of starting World War III, I wont bore you with mine

  194. I try to imagine a life without god and I just don't see how that could be possible. What created everything if not him?

  195. Would you not want your glass of water to be as full as you can? You don't want to just settle with half a glass.

  196. It's difficult to explain to someone who believes, to their very core, in God, but one can fill their life with other great pieces of happiness that make one whole. I find peace in my way. I have objective reason to be a good person on my own accord, and by mine own interpretation. I love my fellow people all around me. I care not what others perceive me to be, for it is not between them and me, it is only for me and me alone. I am a scientist. I find peace in seeing logic and possibilities expanding with discovery. I'm an explorer through the mind of opportunity and perception. It, my friend, is not empty in the least. If anything, I have seen more of any God that is out there than the average person.

  197. I didn't used to believe in anything higher. I went a lot through my life without believing too. I feel more "full" now. And how Can you see god through false practices? Yes I'm referring to science. Many religions don't beleive in certain theories of science. And how can science help you see more of a god? That just sounds stupid to me.

  198. If you've felt what I felt and then went back to not believing, you would be very empty. But it's hard to explain to someone who can't relate or even understand.

  199. Me- I'm very happy that you've found something that has made you feel full and worth while. It's really what we all strive for. I don't think you should change that. I have found something that brings me peace, clarity, happiness, fulfillment, purpose, etc. All I do is continually search for undeniable truth. I truly believe that if there is a God out there that made this universe, He did not do so with the intentions of making us blind to Him in the eyes of objectivity. I think I do believe in something higher, hence why I'm not atheist. I do find the concept of God beautiful, but I can't force myself to believe. I've read the Bible, and found it intriguing, and may pick up a Book of Mormon to see if it has any other pieces I can place. Sadly, I'm just a scientist. I need evidence. I can't work off of simple humble faith. Call me a godless heathen if you will, but I will do good works for all my fellow men and be as good of person as I can along the way.

  200. Nathan what kind of scientist are you?

  201. I don't believe anyone is a godless heathen. God will always be there for us, even when we shut our eyes.

  202. Physicist.

  203. Physics. Interesting.

  204. I wonder if I'm the only one who thinks time isn't linear.

  205. Well, maybe on earth it is. Or maybe that's just a temporary thing for earth.

  206. Joshua, the owner of this blog, and I have been having a courteous discussion for a year now where I state my beliefs and reasons why I believe so and he states what he believes and reasons why he does so and not once has he, I, and a few others have ever said a personal unkind word toward one another. So I am not one of the ones being hateful here. Some of the recent responses to what I have posted though show me that the word of God really is sharper than any two edged sword that its words found in the Bible cut right to the heart. So take it up with God as He is the one who wrote the book or don't believe what it says because as I have stated several times, I just present the information and then it is up to others to believe it or not and yes Zenni, I do have a right to state what it says.

    Regarding homosexuality, I remember seeing another thread here on this blog on this subject and I will be posting some comments there shortly and I will also be making some more comments on the topic of this thread as well.

  207. Oh this ought to be good….

  208. Why are Mormon beliefs any more crazy than "regular" Christian beliefs? thinking a jewish zombie can give you eternal life is pretty out there no matter how you slice it.

  209. so wait you believe that when you die you will be like god or become a god? you wont be a god God is the only God will be the only God we are part of him but not all of his power is at are hands.

  210. "Gods" are sort of a relative term. A very primitive culture would see much of our technology and call it magic. If we were able to interact with them, we'd likely be seen as "Gods". Technology is progressing VERY quickly. Far quicker than most of us realize. We are sort of like frogs boiling in water, as we don't see the scope of change we live in. It is not unthinkable that we, as mortals, could progress to a state of society that would be indistinguishable from our current conception of Godhood. There are many estimations that the Technology Singularity (when computers become more intelligent than humans) seems to be moving ever closer. Most say it will happen in our lifetime. What this could mean for our future is very unclear. We could become more powerful and advance quicker than we could even imagine. If we were to interact with the human civilization 100 years from now, I'm sure many people would want to call members of such a culture at the very least "angels" or something beyond human at the very least.

    Perhaps this seems off topic, but I bring it up because of how sure people seem to be shutting down this idea of man becoming something more than we are now. If we have the potential technology to do this sort of thing, who are we to say that it can't happen naturally as well. No one KNOWS what happens after we die. No one KNOWS God does or does not exist. If anyone tells you that they do, they are not being objective about it. They may truly and full heartedly believe one way or the other, but they CAN NOT know. Definitions are too subjective to say something like God simply exists or doesn't exist. Don't pretend like you KNOW God's power, for if He does exist, he is far beyond your comprehension. Don't pretend like you KNOW there is only one God, because you don't.

    Truth is very alluring. Trust me, I know. But don't be pig headed and jump to conclusions simply because something makes sense to you. In the Bible, it says God created two lights, the sun and the moon. Made perfect sense when it was written, but we know now that the moon doesn't actually give off any light. It just reflects the sun's light. Careful what you take literally from ANY religious text. It's all a matter of interpretation and context.

    Sorry, I know that was all over the place. I guess I had a few things to say. I promise it all makes sense together. Haha! But I think I really just need to get some sleep.

  211. To Kent- personally I feel you need to enjoy life instead of connently on a blog for 2 years of your life I honestly pity you and you can state what you want but that doesn't mean your right or that there isn't other ways of interpretating things. You may see what the bible says in one way wheras another will see it in another. I dont care how you feel about homosexuality but have you ever seen the news? About teens who are bullied and told they have sinned because of who they are. People who were taunted and judged by people who have NO RIGHT to judge them. These teens have committed sucide to escape the harassment. You may feel strongly about your religion so you make act howver you want with your family and friends but you have no right to judge or ridicule strangers who you don't even know. I don't care if my friend is homosexual because it is thier life and they make do with it what they want. You need to learn to be progressive and understanding if not at least neutral. If you have nothing nice to say then don't say anything at all and you should treat people the way you would want them to treat you. Excuse me for any grammar or spelling mistakes, I was writting this quickly.

  212. Zenni, no one here is ridiculing anyone and no one here is supporting violence or bullying against anyone in fact, I am on record with anyone who knows me,. as opposing violence or bullying against anyone.

    All I have done is present what the Bible says about homosexuality and, as I said, it is up to people, if they take the time to read what is written in the Bible about the subject, to decide if they believe it or not.

    Ironic that the Mormon Church believes the same thing about homosexuality as I do but I am sure that they, like I do, oppose violence and bullying against anyone.

    I am a bit surprised that Mormons who visit here haven't, at least on this subject, joined in with me in support of this truth.

    If you doubt me about Mormons not supporting the gay lifestyle consider that the Mormon Church helped lead the fight here in California to pass proposition 8 in identifying marriages as being only between a man and a woman.

    Zenni, the Bible says in Leviticus 18:22, " You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."

    What other possible interpretaton can there be but that the Bible speaks against sexual relations between two men? It also speaks the same thing about two women being sexually intimate in Romans 1

  213. Oh by the way, the Bible also speaks out against fornication, hetereosexual sex outside of marriage, that it is a sin also, so the gay lifestyle is not worse than fornicating.

    The good news that if people repent and have a change of heart and a sincere desire to turn away from their sins God will forgive them. It may be a difficult road full of temptations and sometimes maybe even falling back into old behavior but through prayer and trusting in Him to get through it, the battle can be won.

    Jesus loves you and if you believe in your heart and confess the Lord Jesus, that He died on the cross in your place, a sinner who cannot save yourself, and that He rose again on the third day, you are saved and you will live with Heavenly Father forever.

    Mormons, you don't have to progress on your own efforts to be there as Jesus already did the work on the cross for you because as He said, "it is finished."

    John 19:30

    30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

    John 6:28-29

    28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    I know what I am stating may fall on some deaf ears, but I believe the Holy Spirit is speaking to someone out there who is reading this, so this is for you. Take heart and don't dispair.

  214. Again, I am not judging anyone as it isn't up to me, I am just, as I have said several times, passing on information.

    Who am I? Just a sinner who needed a savior, Jesus Christ, to save me who still sins at times but who was forgiven by what Jesus did on the cross in my place, a sinner who can never save myself.

    I thank God that He is long suffering and patient with me!

  215. So many are blind to a simple truth and read way too much into it. One person has a certain belief that is different from his neighbor, and so the neighbor does not hesitate to ridicule and judge. How sad.

  216. Me, are you saying that the Bible doesn't say that fornication and gay sexual behavior isn't a sin? If so, if you are a Mormon, then you are going against what your own church teaches on the subject.

    As far as differences in teaching about salvation between what mainstream Christianity teaches and what Mormonism teaches, Joshua, a few others, and I have been presenting our beliefs and why we believe them respectfully for about a year now.

    I don't judge or ridicule anyone in fact I have never said anything personal about anyone here ever as, I have said, I just present information and then people can read it and decide if they believe it or not so no, I am not being hateful.

    On the other hand, you have posted something that ridicules me as shown by your statement below. "p.s., Kent sucks!" Doesn't sound very tolerant of different views to me.

    Posted by: Me on July 14, 2011 at 10:56 pm

    I don’t see why people think mormon ideas are so crazy. And I hate it when people say we’re not Christians! Why would we talk about Christ if we didn’t follow his way? (that seemed worded kind of weird)p.s. Kent sucks!

  217. Kent, I meant in general people read too much into things. As for my rude comment, i really have no idea why I put that there. I apologize if I offended you. And I am much more tolerant than it may seem…

  218. Me, apology accepted. I don't see why we can't express what we believe and reasons why we believe it without being disrepectful and I am not singling you out here as you are not the only one who stepped over the line.

    Others here, who have taken the postition of being tolerant of differing points of view, have called me a Troll even though I have never said anythng personal about anyone here ever.

    So ridiculing me and my point of view really shows that they really aren't tolerant of all views at all as they are intolerant of my views.

  219. I don't quite understand why you are all arguing here? Both Mormons and Christians seem to believe in fundamentally similar ideas of spreading happiness and the divine power of God etc.

    The thing is, you are all wrong. Any sort of religious ideals that people hold are out dated remenants of The Church's desire to maintain control over you all by making you in to God-fearing people. The ideas of Creationism and, if you are an extreme believer, the idea that the Earth is only around 6000 years old is the most ridiculous explanantion for human life and life in general. I genuinly pity all of you becuase of your belief. There is no such thing as a God. There is so much evidence to suggest proper theories such as the Big Bang, the gravitational creation of planets and subseuently the universe, the evolution over time of animal life and even the existence of human life well before your 6000 year cut off date that it seems ridiculous to me that anyone could still believe in anything else.

    Religion came from a period when little was known about life and our place in the universe. Over the last 2000 years, whilst battling agaisnt the oppressive nature of The Church, science has been attempting to explain that without resorting to some higher deity who 'works in mysterious ways'. Although not all questions are yet to be answered, science still provides a far more believable and comprehensive expalnation as to where we came from and hwo we came to be where we are today.

    Can someone please tell me why you would spend your life in the service of a god who doesn't exist and is now jsut being used to keep control over people?

    Thanks

  220. God does exist. Miracles do happen. All science does is give man a small window of how God works His works. I really don't want any arguments here. Everyone, I just would like you to get hold of a Book of Mormon somehow, whether through a bookstore or a neighbor, take the time to read through it, and decide for yourselves if it is true or not. God is watching you and loves you, if you ask him through prayer, he will surely answer if this book is truly another testiment of Jesus Christ, or just one of Satan's crafty ways to lead you from the truth. God has power over Satan. He will not allow Satan to overpower you if you choose to seek the Truth.

  221. Science doesn't give a window into how God works His works, into contradicts and corrects the misconceptions held that a deity is in control of the universe. It is not only Christianity that it is proving wrong, however, but rather all religions. Any form of religion that believes that the universe was created by nything other than natural forces has been proven to be wrong. Science is constantly moving forward and discovering new truths about the nature of our being. All religions, on the other hand, have failed to move forward since the time they were created. Ideas such as Shariah Law are so outdated that one would think that people would be able to see that their religions hold no relevance in a modern world. Instead you continue to base your life around belief systems begun 2000 years ago and subseqently lead extremely closed off and conservative lives. There is no god, so stop worrying about conforming to his ideals and, instead, enjoy your life.

  222. Sean,
    I am a Christian; although I don’t always like the term “Christian” because of the hypocrisy and judgmental nature of some people who also associate with it. I believe in God with all my heart. I believe that Jesus was and is the Son of God and Son of Man, that he died on the cross for our sins, and that he ascended into heaven.
    With my beliefs, I have nothing against the “proper theories” you’ve stated. I personally don’t see why the Big Bang Theory and God cannot coexist. It all had to start somehow, I just believe that God was the one who started it. If anything, science is constantly proving to me the greatness, creativity, intellectualism, and awesomeness of my God. I cannot find anything in these theories that disprove Him. Science is a great endeavor that helps us better understand our world, how it works, how we work, and how we can make our world a better place.
    I also see nothing in these theories that contradict God. God is a natural force, so no I don’t believe the world and universe was created by anything other than natural forces. I would appreciate specific examples of how science has disproved my religion, because if they have, it would be nice to know.
    I do not lead an extremely closed off and conservative life. Although we may have different concepts of the term “conservative”, so I would be interested to hear what you mean by that exactly.
    I spend my life in the service of God because I believe He does exist. Through all of my studies, research, readings, and personal experience I have yet to find anything that disproves His existence or the fact that Jesus was a real man, who was the Son of God, who died for my sins and rose again. I know that people use God’s name in vain, and do profane things claiming it is in accordance with His will, and that deeply saddens me. I know that the church has misused their power in the past, and that some churches still do. But the failings and short-comings of God’s people are not faults of God.
    And contrary to your implication, I do enjoy my life. Very much actually. I live an extremely involved, fulfilling lifestyle that works for me. My belief in God gives my life a deeper, more profound meaning of existence. My life with God helps me to not live my life only for myself, shows me the value of loving and serving others, gives me hope, shows me that everyone is redeemable, that judgement is a task left only to God, and there is no one that is unworthy of your time and love.
    I hope this helped answer some of your questions, and if you have any more please do not hesitate to let me know. I will answer any of your questions to the best of my knowledge and ability, and will research the things I do not know.
    I’m curious as to how you stumbled upon this blog in the first place, since it seems that you feel so strongly about the absence of God, and the “absurdity” of our belief in Him.

  223. Instrument is vary wise. Listen to him.

  224. Kristen, are you mormon? I am, and what your describing sounds like the basis of my life and so many other Mormons. I agree with you on the science and god coexisting thing. My opinion is that god is so much smarter than us. He could easily have some way to control the powers of science to his will. I too have yet to see how science means god does not exist.

  225. As previously stated, I am a Christian. Some of the root beliefs of how to live our lives our the same, but the fundamentals of our belifes are very different.

  226. As previously stated, I am a Christian. Some of the root beliefs of how to live our lives our the same, but the fundamentals of our beliefs are very different.

  227. Mormons are Christians. Christianity isn't Exactly one religion.

  228. I have a guy that I'd like your daughter to meet. I know you have high expectations for her happiness and I didn't want you to think I was just trying to fix her up with just some big loser so, let me tell you a little bit about him.

    He has a temper and has been known to throw fits of rage.

    He is jealous.

    He has slaughtered men women and children.

    He has ordered his armies to rape and pillage.

    He has a son that he killed

    and he really likes the smell of burning flesh.

    Isn't he just the perfect kind of guy you would want your 16 year old daughter to meet? When should I have him drop by?

  229. "Me": How are Mormons Christians? I know that we both believe in God and Jesus, but our beliefs about who they are as an entity, to my current knowledge, is extremely different.

    Steve: Can you please give me specific examples of when God ordered his people to rape and pillage? And what verse(s) states that God "really likes the smell of burning flesh"?

  230. Kristen, Christian is just meaning “one who beleives in Christ and his teachings” hence the term, CHRISTianity.

  231. I consider myself a Christian, one who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. I am not Mormon or Catholic or Baptist or belong to any religious affiliation. I've not read all the entries as there are way too many but I've read enough to see that for the most part if you believe in God and accept Jesus, you will go to Heaven and if you don't, you will go to hell. This is where most Christian religions have it wrong. Most Christians are materialistic in their thinking when it comes to the Bible. It is not their fault since they were taught to read the Bible that way. The Bible is a book of spiritual teachings and is not to be read literally, but metaphorically, figuratively, and allegorically. Jesus wrote in parables and it was for the spiritually sighted. Death was actually spiritual blindness. When Jesus healed people, he did not heal them physically, he healed them spiritually. There is so much I want to say, but I want to keep it short. There is not such thing as a literal hell where people physically burn. Let me ask you this. If your son or daughter committed a heinous crime, would you walk him or her to a burning furnace becasue that is whay they deserved. I think not. We would still love them and take pity and mercy on them. So why would we expect our Heavenly Father to be less loving than us. God is Love. Love is God. Hell is actually the tormented mind. When our physical body dies, our minds will be left and God will show us the pain we've caused others. In that moment, your mind will experience the pain you caused and that will be your personal hell. So you see, God doesn't determine whether you experience hell, you do. Doesn't that seem more just. God is just. He allows us to exact our own punishment. Our minds do not cease to be tormented until we have repented. Who goes to Heaven? Well, not someone who just beleives in God or Jesus Christ. To enter Heaven you must carry Love in your heart. God loves all his children, but he favors those who carry Love. If you have condemnation for others, you will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. If you die and have not forgiven someone, you will not enter Heaven. If you condemn homosexuals in your heart, you will not enter Heaven. Heaven is a place of only Love and pure Light and God cannot share it with a soul that has some darkness. Do you go to hell then, no. You go back to the world and try to get it right. God gives you unlimited chances to get it right – that's how much he loves us. He never gives up on us just as we don't give up on our children if we are truly loving parents. What do I mean when I say we come back to the world? Reincarnation. Oh, I know this sounds blasphemous, but it's the Truth. I will stop here – too much to say.

  232. I just came across this thread and found it to be thoughtful and civil (for the most part). It has answered a lot of my questions about Mormonism. It has contained a number of very sincere professions of belief and lovely attitudes about how life should be lived.

    Still, as much comfort and guidance as religion provides some people, I cannot see it as anything but wishful thinking. Back in July of last year, Joshua said, "You and I have always existed in spirit form." What a seductive notion! We all have to die, like the flowers and the fish, the deer and the antelope — all die. All cease to exist. And for many people, that simply isn't enough. That can't be all there is. It's simply incomprehensible. The abovementioned living things will fight to stay alive but they don't fear death existentially because they don't have egos. They can't look at themselves and marvel, they can't concoct schemes and make plans and build things they'd like to see last forever. They can't contemplate their end and reflect on how unfair it is to have had all those dreams and have accomplished all those things, yet be consigned to dust. But humans are blessed, and cursed, with this ability. Thus, out of fear for their precious egos, they make up stories that explain away the reality of existence, that hold out fantastical promises of eternity. It truly is a form of childhood; when people learn to accept that this incredible gift of life is like a loan from the library of a complex and beguiling book, but that must be returned at some point forever, the human race will have moved to its next stage of development, wherever that will lead. Perhaps then humanity will realize that the Golden Rule is a practical answer to existence, not a rule handed out by some guy with a beard — just as many of us have learned to enjoy Christmas as a time to gather with friends and family, to be kind and generous to one another, without needing a fairy tale to motivate us.

    As much as I would rather not die, I would like even less to live what time I have in a fog of religious mumbo-jumbo, which for all its "Hallelujah, I'm saved!" aspects of joy and promises of "eternal life," is a hallucinatory response to the gut fear of it all being over when it's over.

    That said, to those of you who need religion: as long as you don't get in my face for not subscribing to your beliefs, I'm perfectly content to live and let live. To the extent to which you talk the talk but don't walk the walk — some of the most intolerant, greedy, un-Christlike people I have known are self-professed "Christians" — you can expect nothing but my scorn.

    • @jimbob – Hi Jim, I agree with you that there are plenty of hypocrites in the Christian world (and of course I include Mormons as Christians) and that nobody has the right to force their worldview on anyone else.

      But on this matter of whether there is such a thing as an eternal spirit, what proof do you have that there is no such thing? What proof do you have that God doesn't exist? What proof do you have that there is no life after death?

  233. @Joshua Steimle

    In response to your desire for proof of things not existing: in scientific endeavors, you are not asked to prove negatives. For example: What is your proof that there, currently, is not a tea-pot floating in orbit around Saturn? What is your proof that Ra is not a real god? What is your proof that Cthulhu isn't the real dark lord that will rise up at the end of time and destroy the world and consume it with evil? Prove to me that there is not an invisible flying pink unicorn in my (or your) back yard.

    The fact of the matter is that you are only asked to prove when you say something DOES exist. You say God exists. You say there is life after death. You say we have an eternal spirit. What is your proof of such claims. The burden of proof lies on you, not those who say God doesn't exist, etc. Keep in mind that proof is not subjective. Proof is not anecdotal. It must be falsifiable (in other words, you must be able to conclude that it either exists or it doesn't exist from said proof or experiment.)

    It drives me crazy when people of religious backgrounds try and pull this. People without scientific training or understanding using semantics to justify a lack of proof. You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are NOT entitled to your own facts. Opinion is not fact. Subjection is not fact.

  234. Joshua, you have let me down. I'm surprised that as an amateur theologian, that's the best you can do. Proof? Are you serious? You want me to prove a negative? Grade school stuff, my friend.

    Tell me if you can, why is your God so unwilling to provide proof? Because if we don't take him on faith, then our praise isn't real? (For an above-it-all kind of guy, he sure needs a lot of praise.) Because unless we accept that we can't see him or his actions, even though he never answers our prayers beyond the boundaries of mathematical chance, then we're not sincere? Unless we're willing simply to say "I believe" based on some books written by other humans who occasionally claim to have had words with the deity — ahem — then all the praise and the ornate churches and ungrammatical liturgies mean nothing? That's harsh.

    I don't know, what I've seen and heard about God doesn't sound to me like a god who understands people or the world he's created. Not if he's also loving and merciful and all that other good stuff. If he really loved us he'd reveal himself or do a few tricks. He'd intervene in the horror once in a while and maybe give a kid with no legs a break. I mean, seriously, if he made man in his own image — where's his sense of play, of humor, of drama and that much-vaunted compassion we hear so much about? Oh, but he's very sober, as well as loving and he'll throw your ass into hell for being human, because it's for your own good.

    I'm just glad he's not my Dad, that's all I've got to say.

    Your God is a mass of contradictions because he's a house of cards made out of hopes and fears and cognitive dissonance and baldfaced, power-grabbing lies.

    You made me lose my cool with that "proof" stuff. Sorry.

    • Who said he doesn't reveal himself? Who said he doesn't provide proof? The entire Mormon religion is based on the premise that anyone, independent of education, age, race, sex, etc. can receive proof that God exists, and that the LDS Church is God's church. Proof of these things is the first thing Mormon missionaries encourage those they teach to seek.

  235. BTW JimBob and Nathan, with regards to being asked to prove a negative, the burden of proof lies with whoever makes a claim. You claim there is no God, therefore the burden of proof lies with you in that claim. If I make any claim on this website, then the burden of proof lies with me to prove that claim.

    I do not explore whether there is a teapot floating around Saturn, or whether Ra is God, because I see no reason to even speculate on such things. If 95% of the world, or even 10% of the world, believed such things, I might find a reason to wonder about such matters and investigate them.

    As for subjective vs. objective, what if there is a God, and what if he has set things up in such a way that anyone can prove to themselves whether he exists or not, but nobody can prove it to another person? If I can gain proof for myself that he exists, as well as proof of a number of other things, and everyone else can gain the same proof for themselves, what does it matter to me if I can't prove these things to anyone else? I don't need to prove it to anyone else if they can prove it to themselves. I merely need to share with them the existence of the idea in the first place, and the steps whereby they can find that proof on their own. Is this not a perfectly rational, logical, scientific process?

  236. What proof does He provide? Give me one test that can be done to prove He is there, and I will do it. I was LDS for twenty years, and although I never went on a mission, I did lead a missionary training camp and am quite well versed in LDS scripture. I'm serious, if you can give me one test that I can do that would prove His existence, I would happily do it.

    Sadly, I already know that there is no experiment that can be done. No "test" given in scripture is falsifiable. None of them say "Do this and such and such will happen, else you will know there is no God."

    Instead it says "Pray, and He will answer your prayers." But if your prayers aren't answered it's "God's ways are not our ways." or "He is testing you." or "You aren't humble enough and must repent and become worthy." or "You're trying to test God, and that's not allowed." etc etc etc.

    Give me one ACTUAL test that can be performed that is logical, unsubjective, and falsifiable. If you do, I will do it. You have my word.

    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." -Galileo Galilei

  237. Well, one of the prerequisites for engaging in such a test is for one to have an open mind, and since you have expressed conviction that there is no such test that can work, you're at a distinct disadvantage. It's a bit like entering into a scientific experiment already denying your hypothesis–your bias may prevent you from being able to obtain accurate results, or interpret your results correctly.

    Also, I have no said there is an unsubjective test. I am asking why you need an objective test. If God appeared and spoke to you, this would be a subjective experience, but hopefully it would be proof enough.

    Anyway, you appear inclined to disregard it, but the test is in the Book of Mormon in the book of Moroni, chapter 10, verses 3-5. It is a scientific test, the results are guaranteed and indisputable, but one must follow the steps and commonly people leave out a major part of the steps and then claim the test doesn't work. The test is not objective, but again, why is objectivity important in this matter?

  238. Whoa whoa whoa… hold the phone. First of all, don't tell someone who believes in the scientific method that they are close minded. Pretty sure that you don't know what you're talking about (especially when you finish a paragraph about "scientific" proof with "why is objectivity important in this matter?") You believe things without any real evidence. I search for evidence no matter what the outcome.

    Let me tell you how science works. We don't choose to believe things because it's easier or makes us happy. We believe things that are as close to the truth as we can comprehend. I may have to throw away The General Theory of Relativity because there was a particle clocked going faster than the speed of light. That's how it goes. We don't get to pick and choose what parts of systems we like and what we don't. If any part of it is not true, then the whole thing is not true. Being one who desires truth is not about de-bunking. It's about discovering and accepting. It's not about being a factual thinker. It's about living in factual reality. I am not close minded. You are ignorant.

    Second, initial bias doesn't matter in a scientific endeavor. If the test is formulated correctly, then the evidence would say the truth either way. That's the point of a scientific test.

    Third, you obviously don't even know what I scientific test is. In regards to your previous post saying that the burden of proof lies in who makes the claim, that's simply not true. You aren't asked to prove a negative. Go ask your science professor. It's simply not logical. But even if you still don't want to accept that, then go ahead and tell me your proof that Allah or Brahman are not the true Gods, and I'll just use that same one for the Christian God.

    Now, in regards to your "scientific test" from the Book of Mormon.

    "3. Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down unto the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

    4. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

    5. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

    Again, this is not falsifiable. It is not objective, it is completely relative and subjective. If you do everything in your power to complete all the tasks, and still do not get your answer, one could still say "you didn't have enough faith." or "you didn't have real intent." or "your heart was not sincere."

    Here's a nice fact for you: If you sit in a barber's chair long enough, you will get a hair cut. Think about it.

    Also, no one knows the truth of all things. Not even the most intelligent people today don't know the truth of all that humans can comprehend. No one knows the truth of all things.

    End note, I have tried this. Many times. I cried to my bishop asking him why God wouldn't tell me it was true. I fasted and prayed and read and prayed and humbled myself and tried as hard as I could, and yet it was still never manifested in my heart. If this is as scientific of test as you say it is, then I think it would only prove that there is no God (at least in the LDS sense.)

  239. You say "I am not close minded." after saying "if you can give me one test that I can do that would prove His existence, I would happily do it. Sadly, I already know that there is no experiment that can be done."

    Perhaps you and I have different definitions of what it means to be open or close-minded. It does not sound to me as though you are open to the possibility that God exists.

    "You believe things without any real evidence."

    How do you know I don't have any real evidence? Isn't it rather unscientific to make such an assumption?

    "Second, initial bias doesn’t matter in a scientific endeavor. If the test is formulated correctly, then the evidence would say the truth either way. That’s the point of a scientific test."

    That's a rather big "if", and even if an experiment is set up perfectly the bias of those humans examining the results can lead to an incorrect interpretation of the results.

    "In regards to your previous post saying that the burden of proof lies in who makes the claim, that’s simply not true."

    Perhaps we're talking about different things. I already know God exists. You came to my website and claimed he does not. If you hope to convince me of your point of view, then the burden of providing proof does indeed rest upon you. If I hope to convince you that God exists, then the burden of proof in that matter rests upon me. However, I am not trying to convince you of any such thing. And since I have nowhere claimed that Allah or Brahman are not the true Gods, there is no burden of proof upon me when it comes to those matters. For the record, I do believe that those who worship Allah worship the same God I believe in. Not sure about Brahman, not knowing anything about that.

    As for the Book of Mormon test, you are right on many accounts; yes, the test is subjective, not objective, and you're right, it is not falsifiable. And yet these things only matter of one needs to prove the Book of Mormon to another person. If one only needs proof for one's self, then these things do not matter. They would, in fact, be counter to God's purposes.

    "Also, no one knows the truth of all things. Not even the most intelligent people today don’t know the truth of all that humans can comprehend. No one knows the truth of all things."

    I know that I don't, and I tend to agree with you as far as humans are concerned, but again, it seems interesting that someone professing a scientific mind would make such a blanket claim when you have not examined the mind of every person on earth, let alone the mind of every being in the universe.

    "End note, I have tried this. Many times. I cried to my bishop asking him why God wouldn’t tell me it was true. I fasted and prayed and read and prayed and humbled myself and tried as hard as I could, and yet it was still never manifested in my heart. If this is as scientific of test as you say it is, then I think it would only prove that there is no God (at least in the LDS sense.)"

    Of course my response would be that you left out some part of the test, rather than that God doesn't exist. I can't prove that to you anymore than you can prove the opposite to me. I know the test works because I've tried it and it worked for me. The proof I have received is undeniable–for me. I cannot share that proof with another, only my witness of it. I cannot show anyone else what I have seen, I can only tell them about it. God set it up that way on purpose, so that everyone must come directly to him to get their answer, and nobody can rely upon another individual for it.

  240. You have an awfully subjective definition of "proof".

    I believe you are getting confused with testimony. Testimony is not proof. Proof that can't be shown to someone else isn't considered proof. You can accept that or not. Believe whatever you want to believe. Believe in the invisible pink unicorn or the flying spaghetti monster with all your heart, but don't claim you have proof of their existence when you don't. You have faith. Faith is NOT to have a perfect knowledge, hence not proven. You are entitled to your own opinion, your own interpretation, even your own faith, but you are NOT entitled to your own facts. The FACT of the matter is that there exists no PROOF of God (that has yet been found.)

    • If a scientist had a hypothesis and performs an experiment to test it, at what point does he have proof, the point at which he sees the results, or the point at which he shares that proof with someone else? Does the sharing change the nature of the proof?

  241. Getting the desired results does not indicate proof. That would only indicate that the theory or hypothesis hasn't been contradicted yet. Proof is rigorous. Proof leaves no room for error; no room for subjection. Proof must come through either testable experimental application that can be duplicated by another party without getting different results, or through a strict and rigorous mathematical approach, or physical evidence that can be made certain and indisputable. Whether or not it is shared with someone else, it still has to be ABLE to be shown. Otherwise it's nothing more than opinion or faith.

  242. So let's say that God can prove everything objectively, but chooses not to. That is, the proof can be shown objectively, but isn't because God chooses that the proof only be available subjectively. What then?

    If I have my own proof that God exists, which for me is rigorous, leaves no room for error, and cannot be attributed to mere opinion and faith (at least on a subjective basis), why should I believe you when you say there is no God, when you offer me no evidence whatsoever other than your own experience, which merely shows a lack of experience with God?

    It seems to me you are asking me to deny that the moon exists while I'm looking at it on nothing more than the basis that you aren't looking at it. You seem to be saying "Because I don't know that God exists, that means God doesn't exist," whereas wouldn't the more scientific route be to say "I don't know that God exists, therefore God may or may not exist"? You seem to rely on a lack of positive proof as proof of a negative. Which of us is exercising more faith?

  243. The tricky thing about your god is that he can be designed and redesigned to fit any scenario. When millions are killed in a war; when good people die and bad people prosper; when rabid, loudmouth christians clearly have no intent of following the teachings of Christ, "It's all in God's plan." When your god is a completely invisible entity who refuses to make a simple and unambiguous indication of his existence and presence, "He set it up that way on purpose." You can't play ball with someone who moves the goalposts at will, whose definition of reality is simply what he wants or believes it to be.

    I will close by repeating what I said before: I'm very glad your god is not my father. He's way too arbitrary, too cruel, too vain and…well, he's invisible in every possible way. No thanks.

    Be well.

  244. I'm not sure when I or my religion has ever moved the goalposts on who God is. Perhaps it's merely your understanding of Mormon doctrine that is changing? Of course things have been added and clarified as time has gone on, but what Mormons believe about God today are pretty much what they believed 170 years ago. Go read Lectures on Faith and let me know if you see any stark difference between what Mormons were taught back then and what they believe today.

    But as for everything being in God's plan, the main thing that is in God's plan is freedom. You could say it's the primary focus of this life. God granted us absolute freedom, which means we have the freedom to do horrible things as well as great things. So yes, in a sense, all the horrible things are part of God's plan, not that he likes it when people do cruel things to each other, but if people were not free to do what is wrong, they wouldn't really be free at all, and then what would the point of life be? It wouldn't really be a test, it wouldn't really be a learning experience, it would just be a meaningless existence without any great accomplishment, without any great joy. It would just be rather blah. If you think God is arbitrary, cruel, or vain, or invisible, then that's based on your concept of who God is, but not the reality of who God is. The trick is to educate yourself on who God really is, rather than assume there is no God and that life has no purpose or meaning.

  245. Did I say anything about life having no purpose or meaning? No. What's sad is that you need a fairy tale to give your life meaning. And "meaning" for you means that you don't really die. You think if you die then life has no meaning. What an ego!!!

    And freedom. Hmmm…let's see, god says "I'm gonna give you freedom, but if you screw up you're gonna fry in hell and if you don't screw up you're going to heaven. Oh, and you better praise me a lot, because I really like that."

    Phooey.

  246. We can agree to disagree, I suppose, but for me, yes, if there is no life after death then life has no meaning. Although I think there is a logical point to this as well. I don't see how anything that doesn't last forever can have meaning, unless it has an impact on something else that lasts forever. If we all die and that's the end, what's the point? Then there is no right or wrong, good or bad, because no matter what we do we all end up the same in the end. Good or bad then becomes a matter of individual preference, but if someone hurts us, we cannot say they are doing something wrong, or that is not good, only that they are doing something we don't like, because there is no objective standard for good and bad. Obviously this is off-topic, and I'm sure this topic gets discussed between atheists and non-atheists all the time, so perhaps you can just refer me to some really intellectual article on the matter, because I'd love to understand the atheist position better. I've got some books on atheism on my reading list that probably cover it, I just haven't gotten to them yet.

    But anyway, if it's not enough of an ego for me to say that I don't believe my life has meaning if I die and cease to exist in any way, then you must love Mormons since we not only believe that we live after this life, but that we can become gods :)

    “I’m gonna give you freedom, but if you screw up you’re gonna fry in hell and if you don’t screw up you’re going to heaven. Oh, and you better praise me a lot, because I really like that.”

    Ah, see, this isn't at all what Mormons believe. I think you might like Mormonism if you looked into it some more. We don't believe in "frying" at all, per se, although we do believe there is the possibility of eternal torment. But the torment isn't physical, it's spiritual in that it's the misery of knowing what could have been, knowing that it is forever out of reach, and knowing that if one were to go back and do it all over again, he or she would make the same choices. It is likened in the scriptures to a lake of fire and brimstone only figuratively.

    Mormons believe we are children of God, which the Bible states, but we take that literally as opposed to figuratively. We believe that God once was a man, and that we are destined to become like God if we want to, although we have the freedom to choose otherwise. The freedom part is essential, because one can only become like God if one wants to live that kind of life, and thus forgetting our prior life with God is essential to freedom, because if we remembered our prior life, then we'd make the right decisions in this life regardless of whether we really wanted to live that kind of life or not. Because we forget, and because we don't know if God really exists, we are put into a sort of limbo state in which we can choose for ourselves. If we make mistakes, we can't change what happened, but we can be forgiven through Christ, so that ultimately we can be made perfect, like God, and then live the same life he lives. If any restriction were put in place on our ability to do wrong, then this would also place a restriction on our ability to do good, or to exercise complete freedom, and we wouldn't be able to prove ourselves, we wouldn't really be free, and the plan would fall apart. Thus, if God wants to allow us to become perfect, like he is, then he has to also allow us the freedom to do ultimate evil. The alternative is for us to never have the chance to become like him, and we would forever be limited in our ability to progress, as would God, since he can progress in no other way than to have children and have them become like him.

  247. "…if we remembered our prior life, then we'd make the right decisions in this life regardless of whether we really wanted to live that kind of life or not. "

    So, in other words, if we had a crib sheet, we'd all cheat and be good all our lives because we know that's how to [get into heaven, be like god, get our own planet, whatever — IOW win the Big Prize].

    But the bible and a lot of other dearly-beloved religious texts tell people exactly how to live in order to get the Big Prize — and many of those people don't act accordingly. I'm not talking about atheists, rather about people who actually believe. They still do harm to others, live selfish lives, etc.

    Ach, I give up. You're completely stoned out on a "logic" system that's like a snake eating its own tail. You can dodge logic, rearrange reality, and accept absurdities with complete equanimity because you're got your own personal little world where what you want to make sense, makes sense.

    Like I said above, as long as you're not hurting anyone, go for it. But while you're busy thinking you're going to live forever, please TRY to do something worthwhile that will live after you when you return to dust. Just in case. Okay?

    Please take me off your email list, I can't keep doing this.

    Cheerio!

  248. I'm sorry Joshua, but you'd make a horrible scientist. Not because you stick to your guns, but because I believe that you actually think you do have indisputable proof of God's existence (which I know you don't.) This is not me being a mind reader or making assumptions. This is me being knowledgeable about what proof is and the limits of what we can possibly know about God, should He exist. Having a deep conviction is not proof, nor is it even evidence. EVEN IF YOU SAW HIM WITH YOUR OWN EYES, you do not have proof, even for yourself. You also fall victim to logical fallacies constantly. You use circular reasoning, which is common for religious folk. For example: From a talk I briefly heard from the last general conference (I wish I could remember who it was) said that a proof for the Book of Mormon's truthfulness, and divine nature, was the fact that it must have been written by either God or the devil, and what was said in it would not have been written by the devil, therefore it is the word of God. This is a complete logical fallacy in which you already assume the existence of God before the claim was made. Therefore, God exists because God exists. Circular reasoning.

    You also keep trying to say things like "If you think God is arbitrary, cruel, or vain, or invisible, then that’s based on your concept of who God is, but not the reality of who God is." You are not entitled to your own facts. You haven't backed anything up with anything rigorous (beyond SAYING that it was rigorous, which doesn't cut it.) You do not know what rigorous means, so don't use that word in this context. Rigorous does not mean you tried really really hard and you feel really strongly about it because you felt touched by the spirit or were visited in a dream or felt like God saved your life at some point, etc, etc. Those are all fine and dandy, but they are not rigorous or even evidence. Show me a PROOF and I will believe you. I'm not trying to prove to you that God doesn't exist (no point in that, you're pretty strong willed and I don't think would listen to a proof of his non-existence if it was presented.) I'm trying to get you to understand that YOU don't have proof. That you should not claim to have proof. That you have nothing but circular reasoning, good feelings, mostly well-written philosophy, and your opinion.

    Yes, you do continually move the goal posts. I feel you must have misunderstood what he meant by that. Here's an example: Person A: I don't know if the church is true. Person B: Pray about it, the Lord will answer your prayer and you will feel his spirit. Person A: What does the spirit feel like? Person B: It's different for everyone… (There's one. Fluid goal post where the spirit will feel like whatever the person is feeling as long as it's a good feeling.) Person A: I don't think I felt anything. Person B: Try again. Pray harder. Mean it more. Humble yourself before Him. (Another moving goal post. There is no quantifiable "amount" of praying or "depth" of praying, therefore, if you don't feel it, it's because you aren't trying hard enough.) Person A: Ok, not only did I not feel anything, but my dog was hit by a car and died AS I was praying. Person B: This is part of God's plan, for He works in mysterious ways. (Yet another. When God works in mysterious ways ANYTHING can be construed as God's hand and part of the "plan".) I could go on, but I hope you get the general idea.

    I think you fall into the trap thinking that because what you say isn't necessary to be wrong, that it MUST therefore be true. This is not the case, it's another logical fallacy you seem to use. Example: I am a puddle, and this hole that I am in fits me PERFECTLY. It curves exactly where I do, and is just the right orientation to leave the top of me perfectly flat. This hole MUST have been made for me!

    I hope you can see the logical fallacy in this one in particular, for I seem to hear it from you a lot.

    Please, either go back to school and learn what rigor is and what proof is. Otherwise, stop saying you KNOW these things, because you don't. Believe in them all you want, it's your waste of time, but telling people you KNOW these things is a lie and only spreads bad science and understanding of what constitutes knowledge, reason, and proof. Unless you can show me this said proof of yours, then stop claiming to have it. All talk and no walk. I've been able to back my claims up with logic, reasoning, and well established definitions. You keep saying "you just don't get it."

    I agree with Jim here. How insulting it is that you think that I MUST have no meaning to my life if I don't believe in God. That I don't see beauty all around me. That I don't see the worth of people. That I don't see a reason for growth. Also, your wording was very bias, as you said we are inherently assuming that God doesn't exist. I do not assume God doesn't any more than I assume that there is not a tea-pot in orbit around Saturn. It's not that I am convinced that God doesn't exist, but rather that I have not yet been convinced that God does exist. It would be foolish of me to believe any possible claim (however outlandish it may be) without some sort of evidence. I have NEVER seen any sort of evidence that could not easily be disputed with simple physical laws and natural progression through some evolutionary system.

    The church is racist, it is bigotrous, it is sexist (but it's ok, right? Because it's part of God's plan) Yes, the church has some good philosophy, but it also has some very poor philosophy. The Atonement is human sacrifice. Do you realize that? Vicarious redemption. You are placing your mistakes, your sins, your burdens and pawning them off to someone else to suffer for you and die. The only difference between Christians and older barbaric religions is that Christians all banded together and made one REAL BIG human sacrifice. This is repulsive. I will be accountable for my own mistakes, for I was the one that made them. It will not be on the blood of someone else, for this is pagonistic and barbaric. Also, God made no sacrifice. What is but a body to Him? He was raised from the dead into Godhood living in infamy. Where is the sacrifice? And if God is all powerful, why demand a sacrifice at all? He created the parameters in which we would be tested, knew exactly what we'd do, and then condemned us for it and demanded a blood sacrifice for it? This is simply revolting. This is not moral.

  249. @jimbob – I'm not aware of a single illogical thing I've said. I'd love to have you show me if you can come up with an example.

    Yes, the Bible gives one ample instruction on how to live their lives, and there are ample people who say they believe the Bible and yet don't follow it. But most of these people don't "know" the Bible is true, they just believe it is, and every single one of those people is far from perfect. Either way, it has no bearing on what I am saying. It's not about having a crib sheet, it's about knowing vs. not knowing. The Bible by itself is not enough to give someone the knowledge that God is real.

    @nathan – What if there is a way to receive communication from God that is indisputable proof, at least for the one receiving it? That is, a form of communication that goes beyond sight, hearing, touch, etc. that doesn't allow for misunderstanding? Because I agree with you, seeing with your eyes is not everything, and perhaps not anything.

    I'm curious what I've actually said that you believe is circular reasoning, since the example you gave is not something I said, nor something I would say.

    "You are not entitled to your own facts."

    By the same logic how can you claim that God is arbitrary, cruel, vain, or invisible? Or claim that he would be if he existed?

    "Show me a PROOF and I will believe you."

    I'm not trying to get you to believe me, and if I were I wouldn't be able to prove anything to you. People believe what they want to believe. But out of curiosity, what kind of proof do you require? I mean specifically. If God himself appearing to you wouldn't convince you that he exists, what would?

    "I’m trying to get you to understand that YOU don’t have proof. That you should not claim to have proof. That you have nothing but circular reasoning, good feelings, mostly well-written philosophy, and your opinion."

    How do you know I don't have proof? What proof do you have that I don't have proof? How can you claim to understand what I've experienced? If I see the sun rising, do I have proof that the sun is rising, or do I have to corroborate it with someone else? If I can understand that 2+2=4, do I have proof merely because I can understand the logic of that statement and see that it's factual, or do I have to get someone else to understand before I have proof?

    Ok, I see what you're saying about moving the goalposts (I thought you were referring to something different), and I admit that can seem a bit confusing to some. But it works. The key people miss is the sincerity part. The other mistake I think a lot of people make is to put a time limit on God, that is, they work on things for two years, but then give up. Well, what if God wanted to see if you would try for three years? What if God wanted to see if you were really sincere, or just curious? You could call it moving the goalposts, but it isn't really. The formula always stays the same, read the Book of Mormon, ponder on it, and sincerely pray for an answer and you'll get it. There's no statement of how much reading, how much pondering, how much praying, or how sincere one has to be. You could say the formula is a bit ambiguous, I suppose. But it worked for me, and it has worked for millions of other people as well.

    "I think you fall into the trap thinking that because what you say isn’t necessary to be wrong, that it MUST therefore be true."

    Again, I'd like to see a specific example of me engaging in this kind of illogic. It seems to me that you are the one engaging in it, since you say that because there is no proof of something, this is proof that it is false. "I have no proof of God, therefore there is no God" is about as logical as saying "I've never seen a black swan, therefore there is no such thing."

    "Unless you can show me this said proof of yours, then stop claiming to have it."

    Again, do I need to be able to show you proof of what I know before I can claim to have proof? Can Person A know a fact by himself, or does it only become a fact once he proves it to Person B? If it is certifiably a fact once he proves it to Person B, can we not say it was also a fact before it was proved to Person B? If so, then why does Person A have to prove said fact to Person B before Person A can claim to know a fact?

    "All talk and no walk."

    If I claimed to be able to prove something to you, and I could not, that would be talk and no walk. But I have never claimed I would or could prove anything to you.

    "How insulting it is that you think that I MUST have no meaning to my life if I don’t believe in God. That I don’t see beauty all around me. That I don’t see the worth of people. That I don’t see a reason for growth."

    When did I say that I thought you didn't have any meaning in your own life? I said my life would have no meaning to me if I didn't believe in life after death, I speculated a bit, and I asked for more information on the atheist point of view on the matter. I made no judgment about what you believe.

    "It’s not that I am convinced that God doesn’t exist, but rather that I have not yet been convinced that God does exist."

    I apologize if you were offended by my assumption, but JimBob seems to be fairly convinced there is no God, and it's sometimes hard for me to keep straight who believes what when I talking to two people in the same conversation.

    "The church is racist, it is bigotrous, it is sexist…"

    I assume you have read all sorts of books, done years of research, and have interviewed hundreds of Mormons around the world to come to this conclusion?

    "The Atonement is human sacrifice. Do you realize that?"

    Yes, the Bible and other scriptures are pretty explicit that this is what it is.

    "You are placing your mistakes, your sins, your burdens and pawning them off to someone else to suffer for you and die. "

    That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is as an amazing act of love and compassion. What parent with an injured or sick child wouldn't trade places with that child in a heartbeat?

    "The only difference between Christians and older barbaric religions is that Christians all banded together and made one REAL BIG human sacrifice."

    Well, that and the fact that the sacrifice of Christ is real. Remember, you can't choose your own facts :)

    "This is repulsive."

    Some people find boogers repulsive. Other people eat them (not me). "Repulsive" is a subjective term.

    "I will be accountable for my own mistakes, for I was the one that made them."

    That's your choice. I understand the feeling. It seems noble to suffer for one's own mistakes, rather than have someone else pay for them.

    "Also, God made no sacrifice. What is but a body to Him? He was raised from the dead into Godhood living in infamy. Where is the sacrifice?"

    Ah! Now there's a good question! And I don't know the answer, but it's one of my big questions and I continue to hunt for the answer. All I know is that somehow it was a huge sacrifice, but I don't know why.

    "And if God is all powerful, why demand a sacrifice at all? He created the parameters in which we would be tested, knew exactly what we’d do, and then condemned us for it and demanded a blood sacrifice for it? This is simply revolting. This is not moral."

    What if God didn't create the parameters?

  250. What if there is a way to receive communication from God that is indisputable proof, at least for the one receiving it? That is, a form of communication that goes beyond sight, hearing, touch, etc. that doesn’t allow for misunderstanding?

    -This does not exist. We have five senses. Claiming you have more is ridiculous without any sort of quantifiable system to say what it is, otherwise you have nothing but empty words. I could say "what if I'm really a zebra, although everyone sees, feels, and hears me as a human?" and it would have abolutely the same validity as you have. You don't get to play the what if game in a debate such as this. Use facts, not mysticism.

    "I’m curious what I’ve actually said that you believe is circular reasoning, since the example you gave is not something I said, nor something I would say."

    -All your logic is circular. I'm to lazy to go pick out examples, so you can disregard this if you like.

    "(You are not entitled to your own facts.)
    By the same logic how can you claim that God is arbitrary, cruel, vain, or invisible? Or claim that he would be if he existed?"

    I didn't say this, (Jim did, I think) but I do believe it to be true (mostly).
    1. God is Arbitrary: No one understands God's ways. He has His own way of doing things that are above our comprehension. This is makes Him arbitrary to us. Think moving goal posts.
    2. Cruel: He demands perfection, else damnation. I know the LDS church calls the three kingdoms all heaven, but damnation does not mean Hell. It means a lack of progression. Unless you are in the highest level of the celestial kingdom, that is the end of your progression. He has also destroyed the nearly all world's inhabitants because they weren't obeying him. He has justified wars beyond number. He lets people be born into poverty and barely be able to live. These people have done nothing wrong, and they are punished for no reason. He allowed the holocaust to happen (I know we have free agency, but He has all power. Pretty sure He could've found a way to not allow that to happen while still staying arbitrary like He likes.) He gives us free agency then asks us to give it back to Him by only doing what He asks without question.
    3.Vain: He demands people only follow Him. We are condemned if we take His name is vain. He wants to constantly hear us praise Him. He even says He is a jealous God. All very vain.
    4. Invisible: I wouldn't have used the word invisible, but I guess it works. He is only literally seen by such a few amount of people. I find this odd for someone so vain. Why make everything about faith? he has the power to show Himself, and if He did, people would likely follow Him better and it would probably end most wars. But no. He decides to stick with a faith based system in which people fight and argue over interpretation, because opinion is all on the same level. He gives us no facts.

    "I’m not trying to get you to believe me, and if I were I wouldn’t be able to prove anything to you. People believe what they want to believe. But out of curiosity, what kind of proof do you require? I mean specifically. If God himself appearing to you wouldn’t convince you that he exists, what would?"

    -Not everyone believes what they want to believe. I believe what has proper citation, proper facts, and logic. Many times this goes against what I want. I won't lie, I wish that there was a after life. I want there to be one, but there is no evidence to support it, therefore I don't. As for specifics in this situation, I would require the physical evidence that could not come through natural physical laws, as they do not need a God for them to be.

    "How do you know I don’t have proof? What proof do you have that I don’t have proof? How can you claim to understand what I’ve experienced? If I see the sun rising, do I have proof that the sun is rising, or do I have to corroborate it with someone else? If I can understand that 2+2=4, do I have proof merely because I can understand the logic of that statement and see that it’s factual, or do I have to get someone else to understand before I have proof? "

    -I know you don't have proof, because there exists no actual proof of God's existence. I would happily correct myself if I were ever shown any. Again, I need to proof for a negative. Re-wording a negative does not change it's meaning. I don't need to understand what you've experienced to know you don't have proof. Of course you need proof of the sun rising! Here's a perfect example. You have never seen the sun rise. You think you see the sun rise, but in reality, the sun is not moving. The earth turns and it gives the illusion of the sun rising. So no, if you "see" the sun rising, you do not have proof that it, in fact, rose. As for the mathematical example you gave, it's not about LITERALLY SHOWING someone else. It's about being ABLE to show someone else in a self consistent logical system (like math).

    "The key people miss is the sincerity part. The other mistake I think a lot of people make is to put a time limit on God, that is, they work on things for two years, but then give up. Well, what if God wanted to see if you would try for three years? What if God wanted to see if you were really sincere, or just curious? You could call it moving the goalposts, but it isn’t really. The formula always stays the same, read the Book of Mormon, ponder on it, and sincerely pray for an answer and you’ll get it. There’s no statement of how much reading, how much pondering, how much praying, or how sincere one has to be. You could say the formula is a bit ambiguous, I suppose. But it worked for me, and it has worked for millions of other people as well."

    -Of course this is moving goal posts. Your example isn't evidence, it's anecdotal. It didn't work for me, and I tried for 20 years. That's what we call a proof by contradiction. If your system is said to always work, and I find an example where it doesn't, that leaves it incorrect. Otherwise, God only sometimes keeps His promises.

    "Again, I’d like to see a specific example of me engaging in this kind of illogic. It seems to me that you are the one engaging in it, since you say that because there is no proof of something, this is proof that it is false. “I have no proof of God, therefore there is no God” is about as logical as saying “I’ve never seen a black swan, therefore there is no such thing."

    -Again, I'm too lazy to go through so much text to give you an example. And AGAIN, I don't have proof that God does not exist. Stop saying that I do. I don't for the same reason I know you don't have proof that He does exist. The logic goes "I have no reasonable reason to believe in God, therefore I don't" not "I have no proof, so I an convinced He doesn't exist."

    "Again, do I need to be able to show you proof of what I know before I can claim to have proof? Can Person A know a fact by himself, or does it only become a fact once he proves it to Person B? If it is certifiably a fact once he proves it to Person B, can we not say it was also a fact before it was proved to Person B? If so, then why does Person A have to prove said fact to Person B before Person A can claim to know a fact?"

    -Yes, you do need to be ABLE to show it, otherwise it's not proof. You need to get this through your head. Proof is not knowledge, it is not memory, it is not anecdotal examples. The rest of your paragraph is moot.

    "If I claimed to be able to prove something to you, and I could not, that would be talk and no walk. But I have never claimed I would or could prove anything to you."

    -Yes you have! Good grief… you were JUST saying you have proof. Personal conviction is not proof. That is faith. NOT PROOF. You seriously need to have a better understanding of what constitutes proof. Stop saying you have proof if you aren't going to share it, otherwise it is nothing but empty words. Like I said. All talk, no walk.

    "When did I say that I thought you didn’t have any meaning in your own life? I said my life would have no meaning to me if I didn’t believe in life after death, I speculated a bit, and I asked for more information on the atheist point of view on the matter. I made no judgment about what you believe."

    -I feel your life must be so empty. Living only to gt THROUGH life. Wanting to end it so you can get your big prize at the end of it. Here's how I look at it: "In some respects, science has far surpassed religion in delivering awe. How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, "This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed"? Instead they say, "No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way."" -Carl Sagan. (And before you say that science can agree with the church, don't. I don't want to get into that, because it simply doesn't. If you reply to this I won't respond, you are obviously. They can't both be true in their entirety.)

    "I assume you have read all sorts of books, done years of research, and have interviewed hundreds of Mormons around the world to come to this conclusion?"

    -Yup. Besides, it doesn't matter what Mormons think. I'm talking about the LDS CHURCH.

    "That’s one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is as an amazing act of love and compassion. What parent with an injured or sick child wouldn’t trade places with that child in a heartbeat?"

    -A greater act of love would be to just forgive us after we paid our own debt. Vicarious redemption is selfish and immoral.

    "Well, that and the fact that the sacrifice of Christ is real. Remember, you can’t choose your own facts."

    This is not a fact. Even if you could prove that Christ actually existed (which can't be done), you could not prove that what he did was actually a sacrifice or did anything. No, this is not a fact.

    "Some people find boogers repulsive. Other people eat them (not me). “Repulsive” is a subjective term."

    -You're right. It is subjective. So is finding child molestation repulsive. I guess you can disagree with me, but I do find the idea of human sacrifice barbaric and repulsive.

    "That’s your choice. I understand the feeling. It seems noble to suffer for one’s own mistakes, rather than have someone else pay for them."

    -It's the basis of morality. If you are not expected to be responsible for your own choices and mistakes, there is no point of having a system to adhere to. It's not noble, it's life.

    "What if God didn’t create the parameters?"

    -Then He is not God.

  251. "This does not exist. We have five senses. Claiming you have more is ridiculous without any sort of quantifiable system to say what it is, otherwise you have nothing but empty words."

    Perhaps to you they are empty words, but why should I disregard what I've experienced firsthand based on nothing but your opinion? You're telling me what I've experienced is impossible, but you have no proof that it is impossible other than that you haven't experienced it yourself.

    "No one understands God’s ways."

    Don't you mean that you don't understand God's ways? What evidence do you have that no one does?

    "He demands perfection, else damnation."

    This is a bit like accusing Newton of being cruel whenever someone falls down and hurts themselves. God isn't the one demanding perfection, he's the one telling us that in order to become like him one must be perfect. He's trying to help us get there. Cruelty would be to tell us we can do whatever we want and still become perfect, because that's simply not how things work, and God can't change that.

    "He demands people only follow Him. We are condemned if we take His name is vain. He wants to constantly hear us praise Him."

    These commands are all based on his love for us. If we don't follow him it's impossible for us to become like him. If we don't become like him, we can't attain our full potential nor ultimate happiness. If we take his name in vain then we are not taking him seriously, which impedes our ability to progress. Praise turns our hearts and minds to him, which helps us follow him and become like him. Vanity has nothing to do with it.

    "Why make everything about faith?"

    Because the alternative is to give people knowledge. If people are given knowledge without needing to exercise faith first, then they are not free to choose to believe what they want to believe.

    "he has the power to show Himself, and if He did, people would likely follow Him better and it would probably end most wars."

    Well yeah, God could just send angels to fly all over telling people what the facts are. He could appear to everyone individually and prove to them that he exists. But his goal isn't to get everyone to believe in him. His goal isn't to end wars. His goal is to help those who want to become like him to become like him, adn that requires freedom, and proof before faith would destroy that plan.

    "I would require the physical evidence that could not come through natural physical laws"

    I'm not sure what you mean by this, can you give me an example?

    "I know you don’t have proof, because there exists no actual proof of God’s existence."

    There is no logic whatsoever in this sentence. Just because you haven't seen the proof doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    "Of course this is moving goal posts. Your example isn’t evidence, it’s anecdotal. It didn’t work for me, and I tried for 20 years. That’s what we call a proof by contradiction. If your system is said to always work, and I find an example where it doesn’t, that leaves it incorrect. Otherwise, God only sometimes keeps His promises."

    It didn't work for you because you were missing part of the equation. You do not have an example of the formula not working, you have an example of someone not following the formula, then claiming the formula doesn't work.

    "And AGAIN, I don’t have proof that God does not exist. Stop saying that I do."

    Let me see if I understand–if you don't have proof that God does not exist, then does that mean you allow for the possibility he does exist? Pardon me if I'm a bit confused, perhaps I'm mixing things you've said with JimBob again, but I was under the impression you were certain that God does not exist.

    If you do allow that God might exist, then where is the logic in saying that there is no way I could have proof of this?

    "The logic goes “I have no reasonable reason to believe in God, therefore I don’t” not “I have no proof, so I an convinced He doesn’t exist.”"

    This is logical to me. I just don't understand how you make the leap from saying "I have no reason to believe in God" to telling me that I have no reason to believe in God.

    "Yes, you do need to be ABLE to show it, otherwise it’s not proof."

    Let's say I am able to show it, but I choose not to. Do I have proof?

    "You seriously need to have a better understanding of what constitutes proof."

    Perhaps we need to agree on a definition of the word "proof". Perhaps it means something different to you than what the word means to me. One dictionary definition says:

    "Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement."

    I see nothing in there about needing to be able to show it to another person, so that definition works for me. I have experienced evidence that establishes the fact of God's existence. So for me, God's existence is a fact. The evidence I have experienced and received is proof, for me. If you want to add to that definition that for something to be proof it has to be able to be shared by one person with another, then we are indeed talking about two different things when we each use the word "proof".

    "Living only to gt THROUGH life. Wanting to end it so you can get your big prize at the end of it."

    Actually, my belief gives me great pleasure in living life. If I didn't believe in life after death, life would be depressing, because I would feel as though nothing matters, since it all ends and none of it would last forever. I suppose I would probably try and get whatever happiness I could out of life while I was living, but I would always have a nagging in the back of my mind that it doesn't really make any difference because whether one is happy or sad in this life it all ends the same way. But knowing that there is life after death, and knowing the potential of what we can become makes life exciting and gives me a feeling of great purpose. The things I do, the way I treat people, have eternal consequences that last forever. If I can teach someone something that helps them reach more of their potential I'm not just making a difference in their life here on earth, but I may be making a positive impact that will last forever.

    "How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, “This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed”? "

    That is pretty much what is preached in the LDS Church, although so far the universe hasn't quite reached what the prophets have said, since our scriptures say that God has created worlds without number, and scientists still make estimates and try to put a number on the planets contained in the universe. I think this video clip does a decent job of describing how Mormons see the universe:

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6F_ytRbZiu4&quot; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    "Instead they say, “No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.”

    Perhaps other religions say this, directly or indirectly, but that is certainly not the LDS perspective. My father worked on the Hubble Space Telescope for 10 years and has an enormous print of the Hubble Deep Field photo on the wall of his home accompanied by the scripture "And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten." – Moses 1:33. We see the vastness and beauty of the universe as further evidence of God and the immensity of his knowledge, power, and love.

    "And before you say that science can agree with the church, don’t. I don’t want to get into that, because it simply doesn’t. If you reply to this I won’t respond, you are obviously. They can’t both be true in their entirety."

    Well, I'll respond anyway. I have never encountered a concrete conflict between science and my religion. Potential conflicts, sure, but only because of a lack of information.

    "A greater act of love would be to just forgive us after we paid our own debt."

    He can't, because we can't pay for our own debts. Once we do something, we can't undo it. It is permanent. I don't pretend to understand exactly how the Atonement works, but it does what we cannot do, it erases our debts.

    "Even if you could prove that Christ actually existed (which can’t be done)"

    It can be done, and will be done. The problem is that if you require proof before you will exercise faith then it will be proven to you after the opportunity for choosing to follow Christ has passed. You will have proven to God and yourself that you didn't want Christ to be real, that you didn't want to believe in him, and that you didn't desire to reach your full potential.

    "It’s the basis of morality. If you are not expected to be responsible for your own choices and mistakes, there is no point of having a system to adhere to. It’s not noble, it’s life."

    The Atonement does not remove responsibility. It merely cleans up the mess that we cannot clean up ourselves. But forgiveness is not free, we must repent, and that means taking responsibility for one's actions to the fullest extent possible. If I steal, I must repay, etc. We can reject the Atonement and suffer for our own sins, but it doesn't fix them. It is needless suffering, because nothing is corrected or fixed by it.

    "-Then He is not God."

    If God didn't create the parameters…then he is not God. I fail to see the logic of this statement. But perhaps once again we are working under different definitions of what God is. The God I believe in is subject to certain parameters. He did not create them, he cannot change them. For example, he cannot take me and say "Alright, you're a god now, just like me." It simply doesn't work that way. He cannot forgive us arbitrarily, he can only forgive us if the debt for our sins has been paid. There are many laws he can work within but cannot break, not because he isn't all-powerful, but because that's simply not the way the universe works. For example, he can't make red be blue. He can change things that are red to be blue, but he can't make red = blue. The colors are defined by their differences. If they were not different, they would be the same, and even God can't make two things that are different be the same. It's an illogical fantasy. In the same way God cannot simply forgive sins, because it's not a choice, it's a matter of existence. The sin exists, and as long as it exists, then we are imperfect and cannot become gods. But somehow the Atonement fixes things so that God is able to forgive those sins upon condition of repentance and following Christ. Without the Atonement, God could not forgive those sins, it would simply be impossible.

  252. "Perhaps to you they are empty words, but why should I disregard what I’ve experienced firsthand based on nothing but your opinion? You’re telling me what I’ve experienced is impossible, but you have no proof that it is impossible other than that you haven’t experienced it yourself."

    -*sigh* I can't argue this point with you any further. If you have proof, I'd love to see it. If you don't want to show me, then I'll continue seeing it as empty words. I can claim anything I want, but until I put my money where my mouth is, I have nothing legitimate to say to anyone else. Especially if I try to sway someone's opinion using it as an example.

    "Don’t you mean that you don’t understand God’s ways? What evidence do you have that no one does?"

    -No. I mean no one does. It says it in the scriptures. Anyone who claims they do is kidding themselves and thinks they are far smarter than they are.

    "This is a bit like accusing Newton of being cruel whenever someone falls down and hurts themselves. God isn’t the one demanding perfection, he’s the one telling us that in order to become like him one must be perfect. He’s trying to help us get there. Cruelty would be to tell us we can do whatever we want and still become perfect, because that’s simply not how things work, and God can’t change that."

    -Not sure why it's simply how things work. God is all powerful. He created the universe, didn't He? Besides that, what is perfection? Who gets to say what being perfect is? There are many systems of morality that don't agree with each other. That's why philosophers argue. If God gets to say what's perfect, then He's still the one damning us. He is the great judge, is He not?

    "(He demands people only follow Him. We are condemned if we take His name is vain. He wants to constantly hear us praise Him.)
    These commands are all based on his love for us. If we don’t follow him it’s impossible for us to become like him. If we don’t become like him, we can’t attain our full potential nor ultimate happiness. If we take his name in vain then we are not taking him seriously, which impedes our ability to progress. Praise turns our hearts and minds to him, which helps us follow him and become like him. Vanity has nothing to do with it."

    -This is not love. This is the master slave relationship where we must be taught to fear and love the same person. This is how you brainwash people. Also, what is ultimate happiness or full potential? Both of those are completely relative terms.

    "(Why make everything about faith?)
    Because the alternative is to give people knowledge. If people are given knowledge without needing to exercise faith first, then they are not free to choose to believe what they want to believe."

    -That's not true. I try and give you knowledge and you choose to believe whatever you want. People ignore facts all the time. Your point is still null.

    "Well yeah, God could just send angels to fly all over telling people what the facts are. He could appear to everyone individually and prove to them that he exists. But his goal isn’t to get everyone to believe in him. His goal isn’t to end wars. His goal is to help those who want to become like him to become like him, and that requires freedom, and proof before faith would destroy that plan."

    -How would proof of His existence hinder people becoming more like him? You'd still have freedom; as much as you do now, anyway. And of course His goal is to get people to believe in Him. It's at least one of His goals. Why else would you send missionaries to foreign lands to teach and preach? Why else would He destroy the wicked for not listening to Him? Doesn't seem like a very well thought out plan.

    “(I would require the physical evidence that could not come through natural physical laws)
    I’m not sure what you mean by this, can you give me an example?"

    -Of course I can't. It doesn't exist. Everything that has ever happened can be explained with the laws of nature. No need for a God, therefore, no reason to believe in Him. Just like how you don't believe in unicorns. You've never seen anything that would need the existence of a unicorn to be real, so you assume it's a fairy tale.

    “(I know you don’t have proof, because there exists no actual proof of God’s existence.)
    There is no logic whatsoever in this sentence. Just because you haven’t seen the proof doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist."

    -Fair enough. Let me re-word it. I can't trust that you have proof, because you don't know what the hell proof is, as per your comments on this blog. Aside from that, I know that there exists no currently known proof of God, else there would be no debate. You can't prove God exists or doesn't exist. Just like unicorns.

    It didn’t work for you because you were missing part of the equation. You do not have an example of the formula not working, you have an example of someone not following the formula, then claiming the formula doesn’t work.

    -Oh yeah? What part of the equation is that exactly? Pretty sure I wasn't missing anything. Nice try though.

    "Let me see if I understand–if you don’t have proof that God does not exist, then does that mean you allow for the possibility he does exist? Pardon me if I’m a bit confused, perhaps I’m mixing things you’ve said with JimBob again, but I was under the impression you were certain that God does not exist."

    – I allow for the possibility for God like I allow for the possibility of unicorns. I have no proof that unicorns don't exist, and I suppose it would be presumptuous of me to say that there is NO POSSIBLE WAY they could exist. That's how I feel about it. It's not that I am convinced that God doesn't exist. It's that I haven't yet been convinced that God exists.

    "If you do allow that God might exist, then where is the logic in saying that there is no way I could have proof of this?"

    -Again, because you don't know what proof is. I wouldn't believe someone telling me they had proof of unicorns either, but if I ever saw it I'd instantly take it back and believe it.

    "I just don’t understand how you make the leap from saying “I have no reason to believe in God” to telling me that I have no reason to believe in God."

    -Just trying to educate you.

    "Let’s say I am able to show it, but I choose not to. Do I have proof?"

    -Sure, but I'd assume you're full of crap, and so should anyone you tell that to.

    "Perhaps we need to agree on a definition of the word “proof”. Perhaps it means something different to you than what the word means to me. One dictionary definition says:
    [Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.]
    I see nothing in there about needing to be able to show it to another person, so that definition works for me. I have experienced evidence that establishes the fact of God’s existence. So for me, God’s existence is a fact. The evidence I have experienced and received is proof, for me. If you want to add to that definition that for something to be proof it has to be able to be shared by one person with another, then we are indeed talking about two different things when we each use the word “proof”."

    -To be able to establish fact or truth, you need to be ABLE to show it, otherwise it's just words, not proof. You frustrating me with this subject. You don't know what proof is. Think of it like a court. Innocent until proven guilty. The lawyers need to be able to SHOW their proof, else they could not prove anything.

    "Actually, my belief gives me great pleasure in living life. If I didn’t believe in life after death, life would be depressing, because I would feel as though nothing matters, since it all ends and none of it would last forever. I suppose I would probably try and get whatever happiness I could out of life while I was living, but I would always have a nagging in the back of my mind that it doesn’t really make any difference because whether one is happy or sad in this life it all ends the same way. But knowing that there is life after death, and knowing the potential of what we can become makes life exciting and gives me a feeling of great purpose. The things I do, the way I treat people, have eternal consequences that last forever. If I can teach someone something that helps them reach more of their potential I’m not just making a difference in their life here on earth, but I may be making a positive impact that will last forever."

    -Work is hard, so I'm going to pretend the weekend will never end so I never have to face it. That will change reality.

    "That is pretty much what is preached in the LDS Church, although so far the universe hasn’t quite reached what the prophets have said, since our scriptures say that God has created worlds without number, and scientists still make estimates and try to put a number on the planets contained in the universe. I think this video clip does a decent job of describing how Mormons see the universe:"

    -Whoa, whoa, whoa… the LDS church does NOT teach what science says. Don't try and tell me you know much about science, because I know you don't from how you talk about proof. First of all, scientists do not try and put a number on the planets in the universe. They try and put a number of planets contained in the OBSERVABLE universe. We don' claim to know anything past that, because we can't observe it.

    “(Instead they say, “No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.)
    Perhaps other religions say this, directly or indirectly, but that is certainly not the LDS perspective. My father worked on the Hubble Space Telescope for 10 years and has an enormous print of the Hubble Deep Field photo on the wall of his home accompanied by the scripture “And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.” – Moses 1:33. We see the vastness and beauty of the universe as further evidence of God and the immensity of his knowledge, power, and love.

    -You didn't fully understand the quote, obviously, but that's fine. I'm to tired to care at this point.

    "Well, I’ll respond anyway. I have never encountered a concrete conflict between science and my religion. Potential conflicts, sure, but only because of a lack of information."

    -Evolution. Order of things as they were "created". The age of earth. Where the first humans were. The DNA of Native Americans. etc etc. Thanks for respecting my simple request.

    “(A greater act of love would be to just forgive us after we paid our own debt.)
    He can’t, because we can’t pay for our own debts. Once we do something, we can’t undo it. It is permanent. I don’t pretend to understand exactly how the Atonement works, but it does what we cannot do, it erases our debts.

    -Cop-out. God is all powerful. If He can forgive it through human sacrifice, then He can without it too.

    “(Even if you could prove that Christ actually existed (which can’t be done))
    It can be done, and will be done. The problem is that if you require proof before you will exercise faith then it will be proven to you after the opportunity for choosing to follow Christ has passed. You will have proven to God and yourself that you didn’t want Christ to be real, that you didn’t want to believe in him, and that you didn’t desire to reach your full potential."

    -Again, you have idea what proof is! My hell.

    "The Atonement does not remove responsibility. It merely cleans up the mess that we cannot clean up ourselves. But forgiveness is not free, we must repent, and that means taking responsibility for one’s actions to the fullest extent possible. If I steal, I must repay, etc. We can reject the Atonement and suffer for our own sins, but it doesn’t fix them. It is needless suffering, because nothing is corrected or fixed by it."

    -So… we are required to do all we can to fix things, and even if we do fix them, then we still have a "black mark on us" which can only leave us if you accept human sacrifice… Yup… that's pretty much how ancient civilizations felt too, including that it would affect the weather and harvest. Not sure what makes this take on it any more reasonable.

    "If God didn’t create the parameters…then he is not God. I fail to see the logic of this statement. But perhaps once again we are working under different definitions of what God is. The God I believe in is subject to certain parameters. He did not create them, he cannot change them. For example, he cannot take me and say “Alright, you’re a god now, just like me.” It simply doesn’t work that way. He cannot forgive us arbitrarily, he can only forgive us if the debt for our sins has been paid. There are many laws he can work within but cannot break, not because he isn’t all-powerful, but because that’s simply not the way the universe works. For example, he can’t make red be blue. He can change things that are red to be blue, but he can’t make red = blue. The colors are defined by their differences. If they were not different, they would be the same, and even God can’t make two things that are different be the same. It’s an illogical fantasy. In the same way God cannot simply forgive sins, because it’s not a choice, it’s a matter of existence. The sin exists, and as long as it exists, then we are imperfect and cannot become gods. But somehow the Atonement fixes things so that God is able to forgive those sins upon condition of repentance and following Christ. Without the Atonement, God could not forgive those sins, it would simply be impossible."

    -Sure God can forgive sin, Christ did it all the time. He is the one who defined sins to begin with. Also, perfection is a pipe dream. It's relative and cannot be rigorously defined as a specific state of being. If something is impossible for God, then He is not all powerful. The concept of God is inherently contradictory because of this. This isn't the only contradiction, however.

    Epicurus the philosopher said this:

    If an all-powerful and perfectly good god exists, then evil does not.
    There is evil in the world.
    Therefore, an all-powerful and perfectly good god does not exist.

    This argument is of the logically valid form modus tollens (denying the consequent). In this case, P is "God exists" and Q is "there is no evil in the world".

    Since it is unclear precisely how the antecedent of the first premise of "Epicurus" argument entails the consequent, later philosophers have offered refinements such as 2
    1. God exists.
    2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
    3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
    4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
    5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
    6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
    7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
    8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

    A version by William L. Rowe:
    1.There exist instances of intense suffering which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
    2. An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
    3. (Therefore) There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.

    I like this quote by David Attenborough:
    "My response is that when Creationists talk about God creating every individual species as a separate act, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things. But I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] that's going to make him blind. And [I ask them], 'Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent child's eyeball? Because that doesn't seem to me to coincide with a God who's full of mercy"

  253. Boy, our responses to each other are getting longer and longer…I might have to take a break from this conversation just for the sake of my day job :)

    "I can’t argue this point with you any further. If you have proof, I’d love to see it. If you don’t want to show me, then I’ll continue seeing it as empty words. I can claim anything I want, but until I put my money where my mouth is, I have nothing legitimate to say to anyone else. Especially if I try to sway someone’s opinion using it as an example."

    Well, that's the thing, I'm not trying to sway your opinion, except where you make the rather outrageous claim that you know that I don't have proof. This is simply illogical and unscientific to make such a claim. If you're merely saying "I won't believe it until I see it" then sure, that's a logical thought to hold.

    "No. I mean no one does. It says it in the scriptures. Anyone who claims they do is kidding themselves and thinks they are far smarter than they are."

    I agree that there is no man who understands all God's ways, and probably no man who understands 10% of God's ways, but I don't believe this means a man can't understand any of God's ways, or that His ways are 100% unintelligible. Mostly the scripture that says God's ways aren't man's ways are referring to the natural man vs. the spiritual man. To the natural man who lives in the world and sees things from a worldly perspective the things of God appear as foolishness. To the spiritual man the things of God make sense. Not that the spiritual man understands everything, but he understands some things, and can see the possibility of how the other things might make sense as well.

    "Not sure why it’s simply how things work. God is all powerful. He created the universe, didn’t He? Besides that, what is perfection? Who gets to say what being perfect is? There are many systems of morality that don’t agree with each other. That’s why philosophers argue. If God gets to say what’s perfect, then He’s still the one damning us. He is the great judge, is He not?"

    God is all-powerful in the sense that there is no more power to be had than what he has, and he has the power to make good on all his promises and plans. But as with my red = blue example, there are things that logically he can't do. God doesn't get to say what's perfect, that is, he doesn't choose what the definition of perfection is, he's just the messenger telling us what perfection is. As with judges in our system, they don't make the laws (well, ok, we could argue they do, but they shouldn't!), they interpret the laws. God judges us against the laws, but he didn't necessarily create those laws. I don't believe the laws of the universe were created at all, they just are what they are by self-definition. Happiness is happiness, sadness is sadness, and sadness can neither be happiness, nor happiness sadness, because they are what they are.

    "This is not love. This is the master slave relationship where we must be taught to fear and love the same person. This is how you brainwash people."

    These things are used by men to create master slave relationships and to brainwash, but that's not why God uses them.

    "Also, what is ultimate happiness or full potential? Both of those are completely relative terms."

    Ultimate happiness and full potential can only be achieved by becoming like God. That is, perfect, all knowing, all powerful, etc. Anything less means we are limited, and without being completely unlimited or subject to anyone else, we cannot, by definition, reach our full potential nor exercise our full ability to be happy.

    "That’s not true. I try and give you knowledge and you choose to believe whatever you want. People ignore facts all the time. Your point is still null."

    People ignore "knowledge" when they do not believe it to be factual or true. There is what is fact, and there is our perception of what is fact. Regardless, knowledge and faith in the same thing cannot coexist. I don't have faith that 2+2=4, I know it. There is no limbo or uncertain state of things in the case of that math equation. But is there a God or isn't there a God? There are people who think they know there is a God, people who think they know there isn't, and people who actually do know there is a God. The people who think they know one way or the other are, in reality, in a state of limbo. They only think they know, but they do not have real knowledge, and thus are exercising faith in one direction or the other. Once they really know, then they are no longer exercising faith. Thus, if God were to give everyone knowledge of his existence, without requiring faith first, then the plan would be destroyed, because a huge part of the plan is based on people proving to themselves what they want to believe, and they can prove that only if they lack real knowledge.

    "And of course His goal is to get people to believe in Him. It’s at least one of His goals. Why else would you send missionaries to foreign lands to teach and preach? Why else would He destroy the wicked for not listening to Him? Doesn’t seem like a very well thought out plan."

    Yes, his goal is to get people to believe in him, but only by choosing freely. He will not force anyone to believe in him, which is what would happen if he proved his existence to people prior to them exercising faith. Missionaries can't prove his existence, they only invite people to exercise faith so they can find out for themselves.

    As for destroying the wicked, I would suppose God does it when it is worse in the eternal sense for the wicked to continue living than for them to die and move on to the next stage.

    "Oh yeah? What part of the equation is that exactly? Pretty sure I wasn’t missing anything. Nice try though."

    Based on the discussion we're having it seems pretty obvious why you didn't get an answer. You have no proof the LDS Church is false because there is no such proof, yet you choose to live as though you did have proof it is false, which means you didn't want it to be true in the first place. If you really wanted it to be true you would live as though it were, lack of positive proof notwithstanding.

    "To be able to establish fact or truth, you need to be ABLE to show it, otherwise it’s just words, not proof. "

    I understand that to establish a fact or truth to you, I need to show it to you, but do I need to show it to you in order to establish it for myself? I'm not trying to prove to you that God exists or that the Church is true, I am merely trying to show that you cannot logically make the claim that I don't have proof sufficient to convince myself.

    "the LDS church does NOT teach what science says"

    Well, your experience is different than mine then, because I see the mixture of science and faith all the time. I grew up with a rocket scientist, so science was always prominent in my home.

    "Evolution. Order of things as they were “created”. The age of earth. Where the first humans were. The DNA of Native Americans. etc etc. "

    I don't see any conflict between any of these items and LDS doctrine. LDS doctrine allows for evolution, the order of things as they were created, the age of the earth, where the first humans were, and I've thoroughly explored the Native American/DNA issue to death and any supposed problem is based on making incorrect assumptions about LDS doctrine. So again, I have yet to see any serious conflict between LDS doctrine and science.

    "-Cop-out. God is all powerful. If He can forgive it through human sacrifice, then He can without it too."

    I thought you said nobody understands God's ways, I guess that means nobody except you?

    "-Again, you have idea what proof is! My hell. "

    I think you're hung up on your own definition of "proof" and have failed to understand what I've said about 50 times above. Proof is fact. Facts are not dependent on independent or objective observation to be facts. They exist independent of observation. It is true that proof, by definition, must be observable, and the existence of God is observable, but the ability to observe God and obtain proof of his existence is purposely kept from us by God until after we exercise faith. If you do not believe God can prove his existence to you, then by extension you must not believe you have proof of anything, including your own existence.

    "So… we are required to do all we can to fix things, and even if we do fix them, then we still have a “black mark on us” which can only leave us if you accept human sacrifice… Yup… that’s pretty much how ancient civilizations felt too, including that it would affect the weather and harvest. Not sure what makes this take on it any more reasonable."

    It's more reasonable because it's fact, not fiction.

    "Sure God can forgive sin, Christ did it all the time. He is the one who defined sins to begin with. "

    God does not define sin, he just tells us what they are, just as someone standing by a cliff who warns you not to get close doesn't define or create the danger but is merely pointing it out.

    "Also, perfection is a pipe dream. It’s relative and cannot be rigorously defined as a specific state of being."

    I would disagree on all points, although we certainly don't have the space here to go into it. Pretty much all the scriptures and every other one of thousands of books written about God, Christ, and religion are trying to pin down that specific state of being that is perfection and how one gets there. But just because it's difficult for us to understand or we don't know everything about it doesn't mean it can't be defined in absolute detail.

    "If something is impossible for God, then He is not all powerful."

    I suppose it depends on your definition of all-powerful. God can't make 2+2=5, but I don't see that as meaning that he's not all-powerful.

    As for the philosophy at the end, there are a number of flawed assumptions, namely:

    "If an all-powerful and perfectly good god exists, then evil does not."

    This is simply a false assumption. There is no logical basis for it. In fact, it's completely backwards, because if there is no evil, there is no good. Good and evil are relative terms, and are defined by their differences one from another.

    The key is actually in the statement "An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse."

    I heartily agree with this statement. The evil we see around us in the world exists because to prevent it would lose a greater good or permit a greater evil. This can be difficult to understand when one hears about snuff videos, reads about the Holocaust, sees her mother beaten half to death, etc., but to place any restriction on the freedom of humans to do harm to one another would frustrate the entire plan of God. And as bad and evil as those things are, they are temporary. The body suffers, the body dies, but in the next life those who suffered are comforted and feel no more pain or terror. The body is resurrected in perfect form. Those who have lost loved ones are reunited. More terrible is the prospect of eternal suffering, and yet God allows even that to happen to his children, because the alternative is to not have children at all, and to not give us the chance to become like him. If God would protect anyone from the ultimate pain and suffering of eternal damnation, which is much worse than anything a person can experience here on earth, then he has also destroyed the means by which anyone can become like him, and this would be the greatest evil of all.

    But because God loves us he gives us the chance to become like him. He cannot force us to become like him–we must choose it for ourselves. But if we choose it then he makes all the tools available to us whereby we can get there.

  254. I give up. You change your mind on certain aspects constantly so as to show your point. You keep making the claim that you KNOW something and refuse to give any sort of reason why you do. You simply expect people to believe you just because you SAY you have proof. (it wouldn't be an issue if you didn't use it as a rebuttal to my claims that I actually do have sources for, and would happily share.) You keep saying that it's just a matter of opinion when it's not. You make constant assumptions and think they are valid points. You are victim of logical fallacies pretty much every time you type a sentence. I can't have a intelligent debate with someone who doesn't understand basic logic and reason.

    p.s. I did want the church to be true. I wanted it to be true more than anything I can explain. Desire for something to be true won't make it true. Trust me, I wasn't missing any part of the equation. You can say "I must have", but you would not be able to tell me what it is without moving goal posts. No matter. I'm done with this blog. Be careful people. It's a person who has no proof if they refuse to show it. They probably know it's easily refutable, therefore not proof at all.

    • "You change your mind on certain aspects constantly so as to show your point."

      When have I changed my mind on anything above?

      "You keep making the claim that you KNOW something and refuse to give any sort of reason why you do."

      I've given the reason many times. God has communicated with me. That's the reason. I haven't hidden that.

      "You simply expect people to believe you just because you SAY you have proof. "

      I don't expect anyone to believe me. I haven't been trying to get anyone to believe me. My entire point has been that it is illogical for you to say I can't claim to know God exists. That's all.

      "You keep saying that it’s just a matter of opinion when it’s not."

      If you say I cannot know that God exists, then that is just your opinion, since you have no facts to back up such a claim.

      "You are victim of logical fallacies pretty much every time you type a sentence."

      And yet when I ask you for an example you can't come up with a single one.

  255. You really are hopeless.

  256. I asked to be taken off the email list but I'm still getting updates. I wish you all the best in your fruitless and circular arguments, but I gotta bow out. Josh, can you help me?

    • I find it entertaining that both of you claim I use circular arguments, and yet neither of you can come up with a single example. But your wish is my command Jim and you have been unsubscribed.

  257. All Mormons are brainwashed with a one way ticket to hell. Your church as you call it is based on Satan. Wake up before its to late. I experienced the Mormons when my son was being seduced into the cult. My friend knew of a lady who is an x mormon. she knows everything about mormons and what they believe. During the time she was in my home trying to convience my son not to become mormon it was amazing what went on. He was sitting on the couch as she stood in front of him with a BIBLE telling him and praying for him. He later told me that something was telling him to get up and hurt her? Thankfully after our prayer session my son came back to me.As she was leaving the cross that hangs by my door was turned upside down. They way its nailed into the wall theres no way it can be moved. The demon was angry because JESUS won again. Wake up Mormons before you spend eternity in hell for worshipping Satan.

  258. Hi Lana, just read your comment and i don't mean to be rude but you are seriously confused

    1: the church is not the "Mormon" Church its official title is the church of JESUS CHRIST of latterday saints> If we worshipped satan as you seem to think why would our church be called after the name of the saviour, Jesus Christ? wouldn't it be called the church of satan or something like that?? ;0) here's a clue–the CLUE IS IN THE NAME of the church…do you see it yet … ??? church of JESUS CHRIST.

    2: tHAT WOULD DEPEND ON HOW YOU DEFINE "Cult"

    here are a few definitions –

    1.A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

    2.A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange.

    BY THIS DEFINITION THEN ALL CHURCHES ARE CULTS including your own.

    3: Do you really think someone who claims to know everything about mormons and is an EX mormon really knows everything? and is willing to give a non-biased opinion of the church?

    4: as for demon's in your home it was probably brought in by your friend's spirit of contention. Standing in front of someone with a bible and praying over them and repeatedly telling them they are wrong hardly encourages the precence of the holy ghost or the spirit of love & peace in your home does it?

    5: the feelings of anger your son experienced are nothing to do with belief or non belief in the so called "mormon faith" the anger was probably frustration at your friend's BASHING >>> Even the mosy patient sole would probably want to shut her up after a while.

    6: as for you cross turning up side down someone been watching to many exorcist films?? If there was demon in your midst then your friend brought it in to your home. Members of the church of Jesus Christ worship GOD as outr Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, his son and have reverence for the Holy Ghost. rather than wasting time telling all mormons they are going to hell (which is hardly a christian attitude now is it??) maybe you should get your facts striaght? check out http://www.lds.org or http://www.mormon.org instead of filling your mind with the vile nonsense spouted by so-called ex members who think they know everything.

  259. I have read alot of books on Mormons and know alot about it. You can talk to me until your blue in the face and you will never change my mind about your cult. We didnt have any problems with demons until the Mormons started coming into our home trying to entice my son into joining. what other religion baptises you after only a few weeks? You believe God was once a man? Very wrong. You think you are going to become a God and rule your own planet. The woman who came to my home to save my sons soul was born and raised a Mormon and didnt get out of it until she was in her 50's. She knows what shes talking about. Yes I am a Christian. Im sorry if you think Im not behaving like a Christian. A real Christian spreads the truth not LIES. I dont watch movies like the exorcist. The cross was turned upside down. I will pray for you and everyone whos lost. Try picking up the bible and not a book of Mormon. Hopefully one day soon you will see the true light. Yes I do believe Mormons are going to hell. You nearly worship a false prophet Joseph Smith. You do some research on true Christianity and then we will talk. my prayers are with you. Every Mormon I have ever talked to gets really defensive especially when it comes to ex Mormons who speak the truth.

  260. Lana, if your cross was inverted you or someone else put it like that. Things dont just move on their own. And Mormons do read the bible, not just the book of Mormon. I hardly even believe your christen, because what kind of person tells others they're going to hell? As for your friend who “ecscaped” from the Mormon religion, she could have left anytime she wanted, and I she didn't leave until she was in her fifties, she was obviously content enough with the religion for the most part. And obviously Mormons are going to be defensive when you talk about ex members, because they lie alot about the religion. And some people only need a couple of weeks until theyre babtized. And you really should get yor face out of your sons religious beliefs, it's really not your or your friends decision. And I've been to a Mormon church and there is nothing brainwashing about it. If you truly love your son you will let him do what's right without trying to make the decision for him.

  261. Sorry LAna but you clearly no nothing about it !!

    LDS or "Mormon" people believe in the bible as far as it has been Translated correctly. We also believe the book of mormon to be the word of god and both bible AND the book of mormon BOTH testlify of the divinity of Jesus Christ. LDS do not worship Joseph Smith. We respect and revere him as a prophet of God, as was moses, abraham, enoch, elisha, elijah, john the baptist etc… that doesn't mean we worship these men, we just have reapect for the holy calling of prophet. TRUE CHRISTIANITY? SORRY BUT I THOUGHT TRUE CHRISTIANITY MEANT LOVE FOR YOUR FELLOW MAN NOT TELLING THEM THEY ARE GOING TO HELL IF THEY DONT AGREE WITH YOU? WHERE IS THE CHRISTIANITY IN THAT??

    no one forces anyone to stay in the church or get baptised. people freely choose to get baptised whether that be in a few weeks or years it does not matter.

    1 We abelieve in bGod, the Eternal Father, and in His cSon, Jesus Christ, and in the dHoly Ghost.

    2 We believe that men will be apunished for their bown sins, and not for Adam’s ctransgression.

    3 We believe that through the aAtonement of Christ, all bmankind may be csaved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

    4 We believe that the first principles and aordinances of the Gospel are: first, bFaith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, cRepentance; third, dBaptism by eimmersion for the fremission of sins; fourth, Laying on of ghands for the hgift of the Holy Ghost.

    5 We believe that a man must be acalled of God, by bprophecy, and by the laying on of chands by those who are in dauthority, to epreach the Gospel and administer in the fordinances thereof.

    6 We believe in the same aorganization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, bprophets, cpastors, dteachers, eevangelists, and so forth.

    7 We believe in the agift of btongues, cprophecy, drevelation, evisions, fhealing, ginterpretation of tongues, and so forth.

    8 We believe the aBible to be the bword of God as far as it is translated ccorrectly; we also believe the dBook of Mormon to be the word of God.

    9 We believe all that God has arevealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet breveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

    10 We believe in the literal agathering of Israel and in the restoration of the bTen Tribes; that cZion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will dreign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be erenewed and receive its fparadisiacal gglory.

    11 We claim the aprivilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the bdictates of our own cconscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them dworship how, where, or what they may.

    12 We believe in being asubject to bkings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in cobeying, honoring, and sustaining the dlaw.

    13 aWe believe in being bhonest, true, cchaste, dbenevolent, virtuous, and in doing egood to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we fhope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to gendure all things. If there is anything hvirtuous, ilovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

    Joseph Smith

  262. 1 We believe in bGod, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

    2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

    3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all bmankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

    4 We believe that the first principles and aordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

    6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

    7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

    8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

    9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

    10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

    11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

    12 We believe in being asubject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

    13 aWe believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

    Joseph Smith

  263. Lana , i draw your attention to article 11 : you might take a lesson from this and try PRACTISING the true christianity you claim to preach.

    Try actually READING The Holy Bible: King James Version particularly the parts about judging others (and thier beliefs) Matthew 7 is a good place to start.

    Judging Others

    Judge not, that ye be not judged.

    For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

    And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

    Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

    Thou HYPOCRITE, first cast out the beam out of thine OWN eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

    Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you

  264. Thank you ScottishRM, you said it a lot better than I could have!

  265. I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. You do not get your own planet or universe after you die. This is the biggest misinterpreation of the Bible that I have ever heard of. Some passages in the Bible are metaphorical, beside where the hell do you get from the one verse saying the we are "co-heirs with Christ" you people think we get our own universe? So your saying all God rules over is one universe? And that Jesus is now ruling over a seperate universe so then because we are co-heirs with him to God we get our own universe…? This is the most twisted logic I have ever seen and it is a damn shame this church is teaching people this, and even a bigger shame that people are believing it!! I know that you (the person writing this article) says that you "don't really know what happens have you die" well I sure as hell would bet on getting a entire planet much less a universe. If you believe in Jesus and accept him as your Lord and savior you go to heaven, if you don't you go to Hell. Simple as that. THINK FOR YOURSELF PEOPLE!

  266. Thanks Joshua, I appreciate your views and your honest uncertainty. I think it's funny that people like Cassie above say THINK FOR YOURSELF right after repeating some drivel from the "born again" tradition. The TRUTH is that none of us can know with absolute certainty what is beyond death. This is a matter of faith and hope. Each of us holds our own beliefs, and we simply cross our fingers and HOPE that we are right. Anyone who says they have all the answers. . . well let's just say. . . I'm not convinced. Jesus said "seek the truth and you shall find it." So I believe that TRUTH comes from asking questions and truly continuing to SEEK. TRUTH has nothing to do with the belief that you have already found it. Keep asking questions, keep expanding your faith. We will all find out when we die. Until then, live the best LIFE you know how. We might all be WRONG! LOL!

  267. Thanks, Ask.

    I don't like to bash but the spirit constraineth me to speak out boldly against the falsehoods spread by so-called christians. Christ said that we shouldn't judge so i just get so steamed up by people who insist that LDS are evil or non-christian. How can anyone regardless of what denomination, sect, creed or church they belong to LDS included claim to be a true follower of Jesus Christ and also spout false anti-mormon doctrine. if these people truly had the light of christ within them they would notice the truth of the gospel within the teachings of the church. Yes we may not agree on methods of how we practise our faith, but if more people truly PRACTISED what they PREACHED, then the world would be a much better place for it.

  268. The thing is, the Bible doesn't teach that God was once a man first before He became God, that men can progress to become gods, that we need Joseph Smith's consent to be with Heavenly Father, or other heresies of the LDS church and it is our duty to point this out that such teachings lead to the wide path to outer darkness and not to the narrow path of the true Jesus of the Bible.

    Below is a clear example of a falsehood from LDS teachings.

    Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7 page 289 October 9, 1859

    “that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent.”

    So we can choose, for example, this falsehood that we need Joseph Smith’s permission to be with the Heavenly Father in eternity

    OR

    We can believe what Jesus Christ Himself said that He is the only way to Heavenly Father.

    John 14:6

    “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

    Joseph Smith has nothing to do with anyone being with Heavenly Father if there was any way there except through my savior Jesus Christ Jesus would have said so.

    The Bible, the only true word of God that we need, does not say, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me and with Joseph Smith’s permission!

  269. Add on to my last post, even the Mormon Church says the Bible is the word of God as far as it has been translated correctly and I have never heard the passage I quoted, John 14:6, has been mistranslated so why doesn't the Mormon Church that Jesus is the only way to Heavenly Father?

    Because if He isn't the only way to Heavenly Father completely, then He is made out to be a liar and a fraud and there is no hope for any of us.

    Jospeh Smith has nothing to do with whether we can be with Heavenly Father or not he has no more status in God's eyes than any of the rest of humanity. Folks, Joseph Smith was just a human being, nothing more or nothing less.

    If I was Smith, after I died, I would have been concerned about whether I was going to be with Heavenly Father and not if anyone else is going to be there.

    That is the problem with this progression belief, that some people are the road to become gods, it can cause people to think they are somehow more special or significant in their's and in God's eyes because they see themselves as more progressed than the rest of us and it is actually the opposite of what God wants for us, which is to be humble.

  270. Kent, if people think they're more special in God's eyes then they are certainly not on the path to becoming a God, because our God loves us all equally. And we Mormons don't think that we're more speacial just because we may or may not be closer to becoming a God. There may be some who feel that way, but as a whole we don't believe that.

  271. Kent, once again you misquote or misrepresent what joseph smith or others said

  272. Tell me this, do Mormons believe in taking people off their email lists who don't want to be on them? Or is pestering others for their opposing viewpoints a core tenet of the religion? In other words, are you doing this out of Mormonism, or just because you're an asshole?

    • You signed up to get the emails, and it's a piece of cake for you to remove yourself from the emails. I did it the first time as a favor, but it takes me about 10 minutes to do what you can do yourself in 10 seconds.

  273. Brigham Young said I can't be with Heavenly Father without Joseph Smith's consent which is directly contradicted by the words of Jesus Himself who said no one comes to the Father except through Him.

    Again, from Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7 page 289 October 9, 1859

    “that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent.”

    There is no misquote there at all as Young clearly says what I have stated.

    You are free to believe that Joseph Smith has to give his consent for us to be with (God) Heavenly Father or perhaps your church doesn't teach that today, but you can't deny Mr. Young said it.

    • I don't know much about that quote, but taking it on its face there is no contradiction. If someone has to get Joseph Smith's approval to get into heaven that doesn't mean they don't need Christ. This is little different, from what I can tell, than the idea that Peter stands at the pearly gates with a list of names.

  274. I did it once — obviously. I may not be a Mormon, but I'm also not a Moron. I'll try it again. And no, you didn't do it the first time or we wouldn't be having this chat.

    • You may be subscribed to multiple posts, and perhaps I only removed you from one. Or perhaps you've used more than one email address for commenting? All I know is that I removed an email address of yours from something.

  275. Joshua, Peter standing at the pearly gates is a popular myth as it isn't scriptural. But Mr. Young's comments about needing Joseph Smith's permission to enter where God the Father is can be considered scripture as Young himself, one of your prophets, said that his sermons are considered scripture but he gave himself the option of correcting them if they were in error but, to the best of my knowledge, he never corrected the statement about needed Smith's permission. Of course you may distinguish between a lower level of heaven and the Celestial Kingdom, where the Father is, but the Bible says Jesus is the only way to God the Father so Joseph Smith has no say so in this matter and he has nothing to do with it.

    To make things perfectly clear I will use the King James Version this time instead of the New King James, which I prefer to use as it is easier to read.

    John 14:6

    6 Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

    Again, contrast that with the words of Brigham Young below.

    Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7 page 289 October 9, 1859

    “that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent.”

    Again, Jesus Christ is the only way to Heavenly Father completely and there is no other way or He isn't the way to Heavenly Father at all and He died on the cross for nothing and there is no hope for any of us.

    • Again, I haven't researched the quote, but again I see no conflict between scripture and Brigham Young's statement. Imagine there is a city behind a big wall, and there is only one gate in the wall going into that city. You would say "This gate is the only way into this city." Then let's say that you put a guard at the gate, and declare that nobody can go through the gate unless they have the permission of the guard. Is the gate still the only way into the city? Yes, nothing has changed about the gate being the only way in. Likewise if we need Joseph Smith's permission to enter Heaven, this doesn't change the fact that the only way into Heaven is through Christ.

      • Stephen Gibson has provided a bit more detailed answer to this question "Can People Go To Heaven Without Joseph Smith's Consent?"

        The answer is essentially what I've already said, but to give it some scriptural background, what Brigham Young is stating is nothing different than what Christ himself stated when he spoke to the apostles and said "He that receiveth you receiveth me" (Matt. 10:40). The converse is that those who rejected the teachings of the apostles were also rejecting Christ, because the apostles were not teaching their own teachings, but the teachings of Christ. Likewise with Joseph Smith, he did not teach his own doctrine, but that which he received from Christ, and so to reject his teachings is to reject Christ's teachings, and this is the point Brigham Young was trying to make.

  276. You are all a bunch of lunatics. To protest and judge what one another do with their spare time on this earth is not only not christian, but not mormon either. We have all assumed identities on this plane of existence, but to not only claim, but to assert for a year straight that your passage in some created text brings you more peace or makes you more "just" than the next person is completely absurd and selfish. The idea that one can push beliefs of their own heart onto the hearts of others is the ultimate sacrilege and can in turn bring nothing of the true gospel for either or any of the true historic faiths. The interesting thing is that just like relationships or ones self reflection, it takes a neutral party, in this case a nihilist to cast the reflection of what is logically apparent. Hatred. Nearly every comment I have read for nearly a year has been self serving, based upon entitlement and said with the intent to not only bring eachother down and prove eachother wrong, but to gain over ones neighbor. Now please ask yourself, what is holy about that? Keep in mind what class most "deeply religious" folks are. That's right, the support system for the top of the pyramids. When we bicker over petty differences such as interpretations of fictitious texts that came from burning bushes or celestial spirits, we are in exactly the position we should be………..and who stands to gain when we turn against one another? Now THAT is true ignorance. I am not christian or mormon by a long shot, my girlfriend is a recovering mormon and "god" save your souls. But remember please to smile when you see us and your fellow "man". For YOU are supposed to fit the stereotype of empathetic more than ourselves and at this point all I see is chest puffing and ideal bashing. What do you REALLY know outside of yourself that would cause you to be hateful to one another in the same predicament? This is the unfortunately sad part of religion that parallels politics…….we fear what we don't understand and everybody has an opinion which is unviewable outside of themselves. Hug eachother religious freaks, that's why you got into this waste of rhetoric in the first place. BTW to be pop culturesque, yes, month

    rmon men DO believe they get their own planet or universe (depending upon the level of egotism and machismo), and their entire lives view their wives and fellow humans of the female persuasion with a bit of submission and servitude. And so what? So do you christian soldier.

  277. Sik, I think lots of us here are just getting our opinions out and stating our beliefs. Yes some comments are rude, and many get a bit too emotional, but I do not see at all how these comments and debates are selfish. And I'm sorry to be rude but you are being much more hateful than most of the people here, and we do not view Females as servants. We respect them greatly and believe they have just as much potential as any man. You are not a Mormon so you cannot claim that you “know this is true”. Also do you actually think your girlfriends views wont be a bit skewed with on the topic of the LDS faith? I don't think anyone can honestly tell just the true facts without their emotions getting in the way. Also we aren't here to force our beleifs onto anyone, even if we wanted to it wouldn't work. I think Joshua Steimle made this blog so people can get information on the LDS faith, and so they can SHARE their beliefs, not so they can force their beliefs on each other.

  278. The original intent may be just that, but apparently you have not been paying attention. And as far as "hateful" goes, I think maybe you should reconsider my words, they are, although my opinion in many cases, quite motivational in nature. Do I have to be a mormon to understand mormonism? Reall? How about a cultural anthropologist with a girlfriend who spent 31 years in servitude under the guise of a male dominated religion that denounced her and refused her prayer and offerings to her own god when, after being mentally controlled by another man she had loved, she refused to fall into line. All details not necessary, but a religion with bar codes you swipe to gain entrance to the temple portion for the "truly devout" or treats people of color as less than human (ie lamanites). No, you're right, most mormon woman I know aren't baby factories taught to stay at home jobless to take care of the man……………..because with a 75% divorce rate why would they ever need life skills to take care of those young lives. That's a man's job. Viva church welfare.

  279. The ONLY people that think that Mormons are Christians are Mormons! When I read the stuff you people belive it blows my mind. This is a CULT!

  280. *** YAWN!! ***

    MARKJC, this whole cult thing is getting a bit boring don't you think maybe if you and others like you spent more time ACTUALLY GETTING YOUR FACTS RIGHT about the LDS or MORMON faith (which if you bothered to research it properly is actually christianity. ie worship of Jesus Christ. ) then you would have realised that the whole cult thing you keep bashing on about is a complete waste of time….

    HAVE YOU EVER BOTHERED TO LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD CULT???

    heres a few examples:

    1.A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

    2.A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange.

    The word cult in current popular usage usually refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are considered abnormal or bizarre.[1] The word originally denoted a system of ritual practices. The word was first used in the early 17th century denoting homage paid to a divinity and derived from the French culte or Latin cultus, ‘worship’, from cult-, ‘inhabited, cultivated, worshipped,’ from the verb colere, 'care, cultivation'.

    cult[kuhlt]

    1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

    2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers:

    3. the object of such devotion.

    4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

    5. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

    6: a specific system of religious worship, esp with reference to its rites and deity.

    ok just a few examples but you can see where i'm going with this…… By definition all religions are cults… however, you continually trry to stir up trouble, ridicule the LDS Church or sensationalise things by continuing to throw in the word "CULT". give it a rest…. its getting old, we are and always have been and always will be christians, wether you choose to believe is up to you,,,, but as Joshua from the old testament put it>>>

    And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

  281. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I most emphatically declare myself, to be Christian.

  282. The Bible never says that we can become gods. There is only one God, which is mentioned several times in the word. When the bible says we are to become Christ-like or God-like, it means to strive to live life like he did, which is a sinless, blameless life. It does not mean that we can progress into gods during eternity like Mormons believe. The Holy Bible is the only true word of God. Anything else is written by man.

  283. I'm gonna link a Mormon site that separates themselves from Christianity. This is wrong. They say the LDS church is the only true church. The Bible says that anyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Therefore, not only Mormons are truly saved as this site claims.

    http://mormoninfo.org/

  284. chris, the link you posted is NOT a Mormon site, and the claims it makes are also not from LDS church members or LDS sources, so please do not make false claims that it is. !! " if you read the first paragraph on this website you can clearly see that it is in no way associated with the LDS Church or Mormons. in fact it clearly states "MormonInfo.org is a ministry of Courageous Christians United" so please stop with the falsehoods. if your going to quote from so-called mormon sites at least quote from the correct sources, ie http://www.mormon.org or http://www.lds.org

    While we do believe that the church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints is the true church of Jesus Christ restored to the earth, we under no circumstances have ever said that only mormons are saved. in deed Joseph Smith clearly stated in our third article of faith that:

    3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

    ALL MANKIND MAY BE SAVED BY OBEDIENCE TO THE LAWS AND ORDINANCES OF THE GOSPEL,

    where we differ however from so-called main stream christianity is we believe that to recieve the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom one must repent and be baptised by the proper preisthood authority, recieve the Holy Ghost, enter into the covenant of eternal marraige in the temple, b eing sealed to husband or wife. and continue to lead a christ-like life, being obedient to the commandmentsw of God, endurung to the end. man doesn't recieve this highest blessing through simple faith alone, it requires both faith and acting on that faith. the apostles wrote, Faith without works is dead, Show me your faith with out works, and i will show you my faith by my works. so it requires both faith AND works to receive exahaltation AND eternal life.

    Salvation os seperate from Eternal life. Salvation or being saved is a free gift to all who accept christ's atonement, whereas eternal life requires the keeping of covenants and promises made between God and Man.

  285. Mormons are exalting themselves and not exalting God by saying they can become gods and that they will have spirit children who will worship them as no one is supposed to worship anyone except God.

    Exodus 34:14

    14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God

    Besides, believers don’t become gods ever in the afterlife, they will not be sinning like we do here on earth, that is what is meant by them becoming like god but not gods themselves, but they will be as the angels in heaven who worship god but are not gods themselves and who always have been created beings ever since god created them.

    Mark 12:25

    25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

    When believers rise from the dead they will already be with Heavenly Father and they don’t need to progress to be in the mansions where He is because they gained entrance by trusting and believing completely only in what Jesus did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day 2000 years ago and not by anything they do

  286. If it is at all about what we do, keeping the oridinances (the law), then we are being disobedient because we are establishing our own righteousness and we have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

    Romans 10:1-3

    1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and SEEKING TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, HAVE NOT SUBMITTED TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD. 4 FOR CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS TO EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES.

    The work we are to do is to believe in Him whom He sent and if it isn’t all about having faith in Christ, then we are being disobedient.

    John 6:28-29

    28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    If it isn’t about faith in what Jesus did completely, then we have to keep the law 100 percent of the time our whole lives and never falter but thank God it isn’t about what we do but it is about what Jesus did so we are able to follow His commands without the pressure of having to be perfect after all His yoke and burden is light and we can rest in the knowledge that Jesus did all of the work for us.

    But we only have this lifetime to acheive perfection of keeping the law if it is about keeping the law as after we die, then comes the judgement, no second chances, no progressing.

    Hebrews 9:27

    27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

  287. There's no way to settle the matter by appealing to the Bible. Mormons have one interpretation of those words, traditional Christians have another, and without an external source of enlightenment there's no way to know what those words really mean. But proving things one way or the other isn't the point of this website, I'm only trying to clarify what Mormons believe and why.

  288. Joshua, we can choose one belief or we can choose another belief as clearly, if we just appeal to the Bible, its teachings are different than the teachings of the LDS church.

    I am presenting a choice and people can choose if they believe one or the other.

    The gospel that I was given is the same gospel that is outlined in the Bible and it is not about Christ's atonement plus obediance to laws and ordinances but solely about what Christ did on the cross to save us, sinners who can never do anything to save ourselves, and by Him rising again on the third day.

    What I mean by being saved is that we will be with Heavenly Father for sure for eternity when we die and not just that we get to live in the afterlife with a chance of being with Him someday.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4

    "1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures"

    But also take into account that the Bible does warn about following another gospel as shown below:

    Galatians 1:8-9

    "8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."

    But folks you can know now for sure, this moment, that you will be with Heavenly Father forever by believing in and trusting totally in who Jesus is and what He did on the cross 2000 years ago so you don't have to be concerned if you measure up that maybe someday, centuries from now, you will be in the mansions where Heavenly Father and Jesus are.

    Being a Christian is all about Jesus and what He already did and it is not about us but it doesn't give us a license to live sinful, reckless lives in fact if someone is living that way, it is evidence that they likely are not true believers in Christ.

    By living sinful reckless lives we are tempting fate as Jesus Himself said in Matthew 4:7, "You shall not tempt the LORD your God" and while I believe that by believing in Him only I am now in His loving arms forever, why take a chance?

  289. Kent, I didn't say that was a real Mormon site, I was just pointing out what it said. Thanks for clarifying though, I had no clue it wasn't legit.

  290. Chris, it was ScottishRM who commented on your link, not me as I am not a Mormon and I believe Mormonism is on the wide path to Outer Darkness and not on the narrow path to heaven, only one heaven not three levels of heaven, where Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are.

  291. Oh, oops. My bad. Well, Kent…I'm not going to say that Mormons are not saved, as that is between them and God, but the Bible says "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'." (Acts 2:21-also mentioned in Romans 10:13) To me, that means that you don't have to be a certain religion to receive the free gift of salvation. If a mormon or anybody for that matter calls upon the name of the Lord, understands that Christ died for them, asks for remission of sins and truly means it, I believe their name will be added to the Book of Life. I pray that everyone who reads this will have done that…a relationship with Jesus Christ is simply the most important thing you can do in this short life. God bless.

  292. Chris, it isn't up to me to say who goes to heaven and who doesn't but I believe people are taking a big chance by following a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible and following a different gospel than what is in the Bible, as shown by Galatians 1:8-9 that says anyone who does so, let them be accursed.

    Will they be saved if they call on the name of the Lord? I hope so for their sake but have they truly repented if they believe it has anything to do do with their own works and it is not all about what Jesus did on the cross and by rising from the dead?

    Jesus isn't a created being, He is the creator who is both God and was a man at the same time when He walked this earth but who was a completely perfect man who was the perfect blood sacrifice for the atonement of all.

    Jesus isn't merely our older brother and the brother of Satan who chose good instead of evil like His brother did as He is nothing less than God Almighty who made you, me, the angels, and for that matter Satan also.

    The reason why people like me are so diligent is because we don't believe we will go to a lower heaven if we get it wrong while we are here on earth as the Bible doesn't teach this, and that we don't have another chance after we die as the Bible doesn't teach this also.

    Remember even Joshua, the moderator here, acknowledges that the teachings if we go just by the Bible as contrasted with using the Bible plus other sources such as the Mormon scriptures and the teachings of Mormon leaders, both past and present are not the same teachings, hence a different gospel.

    So, as I have said, I present information and people can decide for themselves if they believe it or not.

    But I do believe with all my heart that if people do believe and trust completely now, today, in what Jesus did on the cross by dying in our place and rising again from the dead that they can know for sure that they will be with Heavenly Father in His mansions when they die.

  293. Chris, continuing from my last post, I believe that repentance is needed to be saved and that true repentance is acknowledging to ourselves and God that we are sinners who can never save ourselves and that He is God (Lord) and we are not and never will be and that is nothing we can ever do to save ourselves.

    The quote you gave from Romans 10 about calling on the name of the Lord is in this context of confessing the Lord Jesus as shown below.

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

    Notice it doesn't say anything about following any laws and ordinances as Jesus trumps the Law by His blood on the cross and His rising again from the dead.

    So the choice is we either follow the Law or we accept His free gift of enternal life and grace isn't after all we can do as the Bible doesn't teach this either.

    So again the choice is:

    The teachings of the Bible

    OR

    The teachings of the LDS Church.

  294. I agree with you 100% Kent.

  295. Chris, hi , and thank you for your comments on salvation.

    However Kent I and other mormons aren't here to bash. for goodness sake Kent, and to everyone else who goes on and on about lds "worshipping a different Jesus etc….."

    for the last time MORMONS DO NOT WORSHIP A DIFFERENT JESUS CHRIST,

    There is only one Jesus Christ and we all worship the same one, catholic, protestant or LDS/Mormon. Even the Muslims, although they dont recognise as the son of god acknowledge him as a great prophet, does anyone accuse them or any other faith of talking about a different christ? NO

    So why oh why do you continue to spread this rubbish?

    As members of teh LDS faith, We worship Jesus Christ who was born in humble circumstances in bethlehem, who's earthly mother was mary, who was raised by mary and joseph. We worship the christ who was found talking with the scribes and pharisees in the temple at the age of twelve, confounding them with his wisdom. We worship that same christ who fasted in the desert for 40 days, was tempted by and resisted Satan. We worship the christ who called 12 apostles, who cast out devils, healed the sick, the lame, cured the lepers, performed miracles, and taught the people to love one another and God. The two greatest commandments.

    We worship that same christ who entered jerusalem on the back of a donkey, who took upon himself our sins in the garden of gethsemene, the same christ who was betrayed by judas for thirty peices of silver.

    We worship the christ who was taken before herod, and later pilate, the same christ who was scourged beaten and spat upon, led through the streets carrying his own cross, and crucified. We worship the christ who bled and died for us on the cross, who was buried in the tomb and rose again on the third day..

    And all in all we worship the christ who is the saviour of this world, even Jesus THEChrist, the holy one of Israel….who will return at the second coming and reign over the righteous on the right hand of God the Father.

    So for goodness sake, tell me, if this is not the christ you worship, then WHO are you really worshipping? Because WE worship the one and only Christ Jesus.

    I'm so fed up with people saying mormons dont worship christ or worship a different christ, how is that even possible considering there is only one Jesus Christ, saviour and redeemer.

  296. You described the same Christ I worship. What I am confused about is the Book of Mormon and why Mormons are the only people who think it is from God.

  297. Chris, do you worship someone who is merely our elder brother and the brother of Satan who God accepted his plan of salvation over his brother's plan, which made his brother turn to doing evil instead of good?

    Or

    Do you worship someone who is and has always been nothing short of God Almighty who came to earth as a man while still being God Almighty to be the perfect sacrifice to take away the sins of the world who is the creator of everything there ever has been or ever will be?

    Regarding God the Father, do you worship someone who was once a man but who did works and progressed to being God who has a physical body just like us and is merely an exalted man?

    OR

    Do you worship someone who has always been God and who will always be God who is spirit who is all powerful and all knowing and can be everywhere and who can do anything and has always been all powerfu and all knowing?

  298. I believe in the 2nd option for both questions.

  299. I'm confused. Don't most Christians believe that God is Jesus? And wasn't Jesus once a man that walked the earth, that was born to a woman and grew to manhood and was killed. Doesn't that make him a "once a man"? So where is the argument.

  300. Chris, the first options are the Mormon option and the second options are what would be considered the traditional Christian option. So an important distinction is whose name are we calling on the Jesus of the Bible or the Jesus who is Satan's and our brother.

    Doug, we consider God to be one God but three persons, the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus was God and man when He walked the earth and He was completely sinless His whole life on earth who voluntarily gave up His human life to take away the sins of the world. He could have called down thousands of angels to protect him from his fate if he had so desired. Blood sacrifices are required for the remission of sins and in the old testatment it was done by sacrificing innocent blemish free animals such as lambs but those sacrifices didn't take away the sins but only covered them Jesus' sacrifice took care of it once and for all and He could not have done it if He was not fully God Himself and completely sinless and blemish free.

    Doug, Jesus not only died on the cross but rose again on the third day as witnessed by hundreds of people who saw Him walking the earth but He not only conquered death but He gave us a place in the mansions where He and Heavenly Father are forever but it is all about what He did in our place, sinners who cannot ever save ourselves, and it is not all about what we do other than believing in who He is and what He did for us.

  301. I said, "and it is not all about what we do other than believing in who He is and what He did for us."

    That should read, "and it is not at all about what we do other than believing in who He is and what He did for us."

  302. Kent, You just expressed Mormon Doctrine except that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one God, But you missed my point completely.

  303. Doug, but Jesus didn't progress to being God from being a man as He was still God while at the same time being a man when He walked this earth.

    He humbled Himself by becoming a man to give up His human life so instead of progressing forward, in a way, he actually went backwards but at the same time He was still God.

    Jesus said He is God in John 8 and the Jews picked up stones to stone Him and they didn't do so because He said He is our and Satan's brother whose salvation plan was accepted by God while Satan's plan was rejected (Mormon Jesus). They were trying to stone Him because He said He is God. I know it bothers Mormons when we say that they are worshipping a different Jesus but clearly the Bible does not teach that He is our older brother and the brother of Satan and it is very important who we are talking about and who we are calling upon to be saved. We need to confess the Lord Jesus who is God, who was God, and who will always be God.

    John 8:56-59

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
    57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
    58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
    59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    Compare the passage from John 8 above with the passage below from exodus 3 where God tells Moses that I Am is sending him.

    Exodus 3:13-15

    13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
    14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

  304. Let's not ignore the Book of Mormon. If it's the true word of God, why doesn't every Christian use it? The Holy Bible is TRULY from God and EVERY Christian denomination uses it. Why do only Mormons use the Book of Mormon if it's God's word? I think if it was legit, God would make sure that ALL of his children knew it was his word, as he has done with The Holy Bible. Therefore, The Book of Mormon is from man, not God. You can never convince me otherwise.

  305. several questions here chris so i'll try to answer each one in turn.

    !: If its the true word of God why doesn't every Christian use it? well this seems to be because many mainstream christians no longer believe in continous revelation and believe the heavens are closed and the bible is complete. this is from several misconceptions. First the idea that the bible is complete…. what many dont realise is that the bible as we have today was nothing like the bible that existed in early christian times, in fact there was no such thing as a bible, just a selection of scrolls written by different authors many of them early apostles. The bible wasnt compiled as it is now until many years after the death and resurrection of christ. Read up about Constantine and the Councils of Nicea and you will find that many books where rejected before being compiled into a "biblography" or "bible" (thats where we get books like the apochrypha (excuse my spelling!). the book of revelation mentions that nothing should be added or taken away from this book, however where the misconception comes in is that they forget that john the revelator was speaking specifically of the revelation, not the entire bible" When taken in proper context we see that johnmeant that nothing should be added or taken away from HIS Specific revelation mentioned in HIS scroll or book. The same statement was also made in the book of deuteronomy. Hence if one believed that nothing should be added or taken away from the entire bbok then everything AFTER dueteronomy would need to be discounted as "adding to the book". The problem is most christians won't accept the book of mormon as we believe it is an additional testament of jesus christ in ADDITION to the bible. It doesnt take away from the bible but compliments the revelations given. It is another WITNESS of JESUS CHRIST. Sadly, not all christians accept this additional witness as they are set in there ways and refuse to believe that a loving heavenly father still speaks to us today through revelation and prophets, or that a loving heavenly father would soeak to other nations other than the jewish nation ie "the bible"

    Christ himself spoke of these other nations " And OTHER SHEEP I have, which are not of this fold, and they too I must bring and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be ONE fold and ONE shepherd. Christ spoke not only of jew and gentile, but other nations and peoles who would also receive the gospel. The book of Mormon contains the writings of ancient prophets on the american continent, starting with Lehi, who lived in Jerusalem about 600 yrs before christ, and was commanded by god to take his family and flee into the wilderness as Jerusalem would be destroyed. History tells us that the Babylonians later invaded Jerusalem and destroyed most of the city and the temple, The book contains 1000 years of history of the people of god on the American continent, and contains the Word of God as does the bible.

    2: God gives man "free agency" or freedom to choose and act. If god made everyone accept the book of mormon then people wouldn't be able to find out for themselves if it was true or not. God wants us to read the book and then ask HIM if it is true. Notice i didn't say ask man, but I said ASK GOD> logically if you want to know if a book is true, would you ask someone who has read it or would you go to the source and ask the author?

    3: Gdd does want all his children to know its true, thats why he sends out LDS missionaries :0) However as i said in point 2, he wants us to ASK HIM.

    Its not my job or anyone else's job to convince you chris, only God can convince you if you read it with an open heart and mind, ponder it out in your mind and then do as the apostle James asks, (KJV James 1:5)

    "But if any of you lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him".

    "But let him ask in FAITH, nothing wavering….."

    So what we need to do is read it with open heart and mind, and ask God in faith, believing that he will answer us. if you do this with a sincere heart and will real intent, then "he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost, and by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of ALL things….

    http://www.lds.org
    http://www.mormon.org

  306. Well, seeing as the Book of Mormon sometimes directly contradicts what the Bible says, I cannot believe in it. God cannot contradict himself.

  307. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Chris? Really? Are you trying to say that there aren't direct contradictions contained wholly WITHIN the bible?

    Here is a list of some of the inconsistencies and contradictions that "God" has allowed to stay in the bible:

    GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.

    GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

    GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.

    GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

    GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.

    GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

    GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.

    GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

    GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.

    GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

    GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction.

    LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.)

    GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.

    GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.

    (Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)

    GE 2:4, 4:26, 12:8, 22:14-16, 26:25 God was already known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) much earlier than the time of Moses.

    EX 6:2-3 God was first known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) at the time of the Egyptian Bondage, during the life of Moses.

    GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.

    GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

    GE 2:15-17, 3:4-6 It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil.

    HE 5:13-14 It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil.

    GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard for Cain's.

    2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.

    GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is.

    PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.

    GE 4:15, DT 32:19-27, IS 34:8 God is a vengeful god.

    EX 15:3, IS 42:13, HE 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire.

    EX 20:5, 34:14, DT 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god.

    LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG 14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.

    NU 25:3-4, DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, PS 7:11, 78:49, JE 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, ZP 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce.

    2SA 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; … he heard my voice; … The earth trembled and quaked, … because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it."

    EZ 6:12, NA 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. "… who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him."

    2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is love.

    GA 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

    GE 4:16 Cain went away (or out) from the presence of the Lord.

    JE 23:23-24 A man cannot hide from God. God fills heaven and earth.

    GE 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood.

    GE 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood.

    NU 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood.

    GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind.

    NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind.

    GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.

    GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.

    GE 7:1 Noah was righteous.

    JB 1:1,8, JB 2:3 Job was righteous.

    LK 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.

    JA 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective).

    1JN 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians).

    RO 3:10, 3:23, 1JN 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.

    GE 7:7 Noah and his clan enter the Ark.

    GE 7:13 They enter the Ark (again?).

    GE 11:7-9 God sows discord.

    PR 6:16-19 God hates anyone who sows discord.

    GE 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of the whole world.

    1CO 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of confusion.

    GE 11:12 Arpachshad [Arphaxad] was the father of Shelah.

    LK 3:35-36 Cainan was the father of Shelah. Arpachshad was the grandfather of Shelah.

    GE 11:26 Terah was 70 years old when his son Abram was born.

    GE 11:32 Terah was 205 years old when he died (making Abram 135 at the time).

    GE 12:4, AC 7:4 Abram was 75 when he left Haran. This was after Terah died. Thus, Terah could have been no more than 145 when he died; or Abram was only 75 years old after he had lived 135 years.

    GE 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, EX 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11, NU 12:7-8, 14:14, JB 42:5, AM 7:7-8, 9:1 God is seen.

    EX 33:20, JN 1:18, 1JN 4:12 God is not seen. No one can see God's face and live. No one has ever seen him.

    GE 10:5, 20, 31 There were many languages before the Tower of Babel.

    GE 11:1 There was only one language before the Tower of Babel.

    GE 15:9, EX 20:24, 29:10-42, LE 1:1-7:38, NU 28:1-29:40, God details sacrificial offerings.

    JE 7:21-22 God says he did no such thing.

    GE 16:15, 21:1-3, GA 4:22 Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.

    HE 11:17 Abraham had only one son.

    GE 17:1, 35:11, 1CH 29:11-12, LK 1:37 God is omnipotent. Nothing is impossible with (or for) God.

    JG 1:19 Although God was with Judah, together they could not defeat the plainsmen because the latter had iron chariots.

    GE 17:7, 10-11 The covenant of circumcision is to be everlasting.

    GA 6:15 It is of no consequence.

    GE 17:8 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan as an "everlasting possession."

    GE 25:8, AC 7:2-5, HE 11:13 Abraham died with the promise unfulfilled.

    GE 17:15-16, 20:11-12, 22:17 Abraham and his half sister, Sarai, are married and receive God's blessings.

    LE 20:17, DT 27:20-23 Incest is wrong.

    GE 18:20-21 God decides to "go down" to see what is going on.

    PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.

    GE 19:30-38 While he is drunk, Lot's two daughters "lie with him," become pregnant, and give birth to his offspring.

    2PE 2:7 Lot was "just" and "righteous."

    GE 22:1-12, DT 8:2 God tempts (tests) Abraham and Moses.

    JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt).

    1CO 10:13 Paul says that God controls the extent of our temptations.

    JA 1:13 God tests (tempts) no one.

    GE 27:28 "May God give you … an abundance of grain and new wine."

    DT 7:13 If they follow his commandments, God will bless the fruit of their wine.

    PS 104:15 God gives us wine to gladden the heart.

    JE 13:12 "… every bottle shall be filled with wine."

    JN 2:1-11 According to the author of John, Jesus' first miracle was turning water to wine.

    RO 14:21 It is good to refrain from drinking wine.

    GE 35:10 God says Jacob is to be called Jacob no longer; henceforth his name is Israel.

    GE 46:2 At a later time, God himself uses the name Jacob.

    GE 36:11 The sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam, and Kenaz.

    GE 36:15-16 Teman, Omar, Zepho, Kenaz.

    1CH 1:35-36 Teman, Omar, Zephi, Gatam, Kenaz, Timna, and Amalek.

    GE 49:2-28 The fathers of the twelve tribes of Israel are: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, and Benjamin.

    RE 7:4-8 (Leaves out the tribe of Dan, but adds Manasseh.)

    GE 50:13 Jacob was buried in a cave at Machpelah bought from Ephron the Hittite.

    AC 7:15-16 He was buried in the sepulchre at Shechem, bought from the sons of Hamor.

    EX 3:1 Jethro was the father-in-law of Moses.

    NU 10:29, JG 4:11 (KJV) Hobab was the father-in-law of Moses.

    EX 3:20-22, DT 20:13-17 God instructs the Israelites to despoil the Egyptians, to plunder their enemies.

    EX 20:15, 17, LE 19:13 God prohibits stealing, defrauding, or robbing a neighbor.

    EX 4:11 God decides who will be dumb, deaf, blind, etc.

    2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love.

    EX 9:3-6 God destroys all the cattle (including horses) belonging to the Egyptians.

    EX 9:9-11 The people and the cattle are afflicted with boils.

    EX 12:12, 29 All the first-born of the cattle of the Egyptians are destroyed.

    EX 14:9 After having all their cattle destroyed, then afflicted with boils, and then their first-born cattle destroyed, the Egyptians pursue Moses on horseback.

    EX 12:13 The Israelites have to mark their houses with blood in order for God to see which houses they occupy and "pass over" them.

    PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from God.

    EX 12:37, NU 1:45-46 The number of men of military age who take part in the Exodus is given as more than 600,000. Allowing for women, children, and older men would probably mean that a total of about 2,000,000 Israelites left Egypt.

    1KI 20:15 All the Israelites, including children, number only 7000 at a later time.

    EX 15:3, 17:16, NU 25:4, 32:14, IS 42:13 God is a man of war–he is fierce and angry.

    RO 15:33, 2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love and peace.

    EX 20:1-17 God gave the law directly to Moses (without using an intermediary).

    GA 3:19 The law was ordained through angels by a mediator (an intermediary).

    EX 20:4 God prohibits the making of any graven images whatsoever.

    EX 25:18 God enjoins the making of two graven images.

    EX 20:5, 34:7, NU 14:18, DT 5:9, IS 14:21-22 Children are to suffer for their parent's sins.

    DT 24:16, EZ 18:19-20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.

    EX 20:8-11, 31:15-17, 35:1-3 No work is to be done on the Sabbath, not even lighting a fire. The commandment is permanent, and death is required for infractions.

    MK 2:27-28 Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (after his disciples were criticized for breaking the Sabbath).

    RO 14:5, CN 2:14-16 Paul says the Sabbath commandment was temporary, and to decide for yourself regarding its observance.

    EX 20:12, DT 5:16, MT 15:4, 19:19, MK 7:10, 10:19, LK 18:20 Honor your father and your mother is one of the ten commandments. It is reinforced by Jesus.

    MT 10:35-37, LK 12:51-53, 14:26 Jesus says that he has come to divide families; that a man's foes will be those of his own household; that you must hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and even your own life to be a disciple.

    MT 23:9 Jesus says to call no man on earth your father.

    EX 20:13, DT 5:17, MK 10:19, LK 18:20, RO 13:9, JA 2:11 God prohibits killing.

    GE 34:1-35:5 God condones trickery and killing.

    EX 32:27, DT 7:2, 13:15, 20:1-18 God orders killing.

    2KI 19:35 An angel of the Lord slaughters 185,000 men.

    (Note: See Atrocities section for many more examples.)

    EX 20:14 God prohibits adultery.

    HO 1:2 God instructs Hosea to "take a wife of harlotry."

    EX 21:23-25, LE 24:20, DT 19:21 A life for a life, an eye for an eye, etc.

    MT 5:38-44, LK 6:27-29 Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies.

    EX 23:7 God prohibits the killing of the innocent.

    NU 31:17-18, DT 7:2, JS 6:21-27, 7:19-26, 8:22-25, 10:20, 40, 11:8-15, 20, JG 11:30-39, 21:10-12, 1SA 15:3 God orders or approves the complete extermination of groups of people which include innocent women and/or children.

    (Note: See Atrocities section for many other examples of the killing of innocents.)

    EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie.

    NU 14:30 God breaks his promise.

    EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie.

    1KI 22:21-23 God condones a spirit of deception.

    EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie.

    2TH 2:11-12 God deludes people, making them believe what is false, so as to be able to condemn them. (Note: some versions use the word persuade here. The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.)

    EX 34:6-7, JS 24:19, 1CH 16:34 God is faithful, holy and good.

    IS 45:6-7, LA 3:8, AM 3:6 God is responsible for evil.

    EX 34:6-7, HE 9:27 God remembers sin, even when it has been forgiven.

    JE 31:34 God does not remember sin when it has been forgiven.

    LE 3:17 God himself prohibits forever the eating of blood and fat.

    MT 15:11, CN 2:20-22 Jesus and Paul say that such rules don't matter–they are only human injunctions.

    LE 19:18, MT 22:39 Love your neighbor [as much as] yourself.

    1CO 10:24 Put your neighbor ahead of yourself.

    LE 21:10 The chief priest is not to rend his clothes.

    MT 26:65, MK 14:63 He does so during the trial of Jesus.

    LE 25:37, PS 15:1, 5 It is wrong to lend money at interest.

    MT 25:27, LK 19:23-27 It is wrong to lend money without interest.

    NU 11:33 God inflicts sickness.

    JB 2:7 Satan inflicts sickness.

    NU 15:24-28 Sacrifices can, in at least some case, take away sin.

    HE 10:11 They never take away sin.

    NU 25:9 24,000 died in the plague.

    1CO 10:8 23,000 died in the plague.

    NU 30:2 God enjoins the making of vows (oaths).

    MT 5:33-37 Jesus forbids doing so, saying that they arise from evil (or the Devil).

    NU 33:38 Aaron died on Mt. Hor.

    DT 10:6 Aaron died in Mosera.

    NU 33:41-42 After Aaron's death, the Israelites journeyed from Mt. Hor, to Zalmonah, to Punon, etc.

    DT 10:6-7 It was from Mosera, to Gudgodah, to Jotbath.

    DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21 God is sometimes angry.

    MT 5:22 Anger is a sin.

    DT 7:9-10 God destroys his enemies.

    MT 5:39-44 Do not resist your enemies. Love them.

    DT 18:20-22 A false prophet is one whose words do not come true. Death is required.

    EZ 14:9 A prophet who is deceived, is deceived by God himself. Death is still required.

    DT 23:1 A castrate may not enter the assembly of the Lord.

    IS 56:4-5 Some castrates will receive special rewards.

    DT 23:1 A castrate may not enter the assembly of the Lord.

    MT 19:12 Men are encouraged to consider making themselves castrates for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

    DT 24:1-5 A man can divorce his wife simply because she displeases him and both he and his wife can remarry.

    MK 10:2-12 Divorce is wrong, and to remarry is to commit adultery.

    DT 24:16, 2KI 14:6, 2CH 25:4, EZ 18:20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.

    RO 5:12, 19, 1CO 15:22 Death is passed to all men by the sin of Adam.

    DT 30:11-20 It is possible to keep the law.

    RO 3:20-23 It is not possible to keep the law.

    JS 11:20 God shows no mercy to some.

    LK 6:36, JA 5:11 God is merciful.

    JG 4:21 Sisera was sleeping when Jael killed him.

    JG 5:25-27 Sisera was standing.

    JS 10:38-40 Joshua himself captured Debir.

    JG 1:11-15 It was Othniel, who thereby obtained the hand of Caleb's daughter, Achsah.

    1SA 8:2-22 Samuel informs God as to what he has heard from others.

    PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees and hears everything.

    1SA 9:15-17 The Lord tells Samuel that Saul has been chosen to lead the Israelites and will save them from the Philistines.

    1SA 15:35 The Lord is sorry that he has chosen Saul.

    1SA 31:4-7 Saul commits suicide and the Israelites are overrun by the Philistines.

    1SA 15:7-8, 20 The Amalekites are utterly destroyed.

    1SA 27:8-9 They are utterly destroyed (again?).

    1SA 30:1, 17-18 They raid Ziklag and David smites them (again?).

    1SA 16:10-11, 17:12 Jesse had seven sons plus David, or eight total.

    1CH 2:13-15 He had seven total.

    1SA 16:19-23 Saul knew David well before the latter's encounter with Goliath.

    1SA 17:55-58 Saul did not know David at the time of his encounter with Goliath and had to ask about David's identity.

    1SA 17:50 David killed Goliath with a slingshot.

    1SA 17:51 David killed Goliath (again?) with a sword.

    1SA 17:50 David killed Goliath.

    2SA 21:19 Elhanan killed Goliath. (Note: Some translations insert the words "the brother of" before Elhanan. These are an addition to the earliest manuscripts in an apparent attempt to rectify this inconsistency.)

    1SA 21:1-6 Ahimalech was high priest when David ate the bread.

    MK 2:26 Abiathar was high priest at the time.

    1SA 28:6 Saul inquired of the Lord, but received no answer.

    1CH 10:13-14 Saul died for not inquiring of the Lord.

    1SA 31:4-6 Saul killed himself by falling on his sword.

    2SA 1:2-10 Saul, at his own request, was slain by an Amalekite.

    2SA 21:12 Saul was killed by the Philistines on Gilboa.

    1CH 10:13-14 Saul was slain by God.

    2SA 6:23 Michal was childless.

    2SA 21:8 (KJV) She had five sons.

    2SA 24:1 The Lord inspired David to take the census.

    1CH 21:1 Satan inspired the census.

    2SA 24:9 The census count was: Israel 800,000 and Judah 500,000.

    1CH 21:5 The census count was: Israel 1,100,000 and Judah 470,000.

    2SA 24:10-17 David sinned in taking the census.

    1KI 15:5 David's only sin (ever) was in regard to another matter.

    2SA 24:24 David paid 50 shekels of silver for the purchase of a property.

    1CH 21:22-25 He paid 600 shekels of gold.

    1KI 3:12 God made Solomon the wisest man that ever lived, yet ….

    1KI 11:1-13 Solomon loved many foreign women (against God's explicit prohibition) who turned him to other gods (for which he deserved death).

    1KI 3:12, 4:29, 10:23-24, 2CH 9:22-23 God made Solomon the wisest king and the wisest man that ever lived. There never has been nor will be another like him.

    MT 12:42, LK 11:31 Jesus says: "… now one greater than Solomon is here."

    1KI 4:26 Solomon had 40,000 horses (or stalls for horses).

    2CH 9:25 He had 4,000 horses (or stalls for horses).

    1KI 5:16 Solomon had 3,300 supervisors.

    2CH 2:2 He had 3,600 supervisors.

    1KI 7:15-22 The two pillars were 18 cubits high.

    2CH 3:15-17 They were 35 cubits high.

    1KI 7:26 Solomon's "molten sea" held 2000 "baths" (1 bath = about 8 gallons).

    2CH 4:5 It held 3000 "baths."

    1KI 8:12, 2CH 6:1, PS 18:11 God dwells in thick darkness.

    1TI 6:16 God dwells in unapproachable light.

    1KI 8:13, AC 7:47 Solomon, whom God made the wisest man ever, built his temple as an abode for God.

    AC 7:48-49 God does not dwell in temples built by men.

    1KI 9:28 420 talents of gold were brought back from Ophir.

    2CH 8:18 450 talents of gold were brought back from Ophir.

    1KI 15:14 Asa did not remove the high places.

    2CH 14:2-3 He did remove them.

    1KI 16:6-8 Baasha died in the 26th year of King Asa's reign.

    2CH 16:1 Baasha built a city in the 36th year of King Asa's reign.

    1KI 16:23 Omri became king in the thirty-first year of Asa's reign and he reigned for a total of twelve years.

    1KI 16:28-29 Omri died, and his son Ahab became king in the thirty- eighth year of Asa's reign. (Note: Thirty-one through thirty-eight equals a reign of seven or eight years.)

    1KI 22:23, 2CH 18:22, 2TH 2:11 God himself causes a lying spirit.

    PR 12:22 God abhors lying lips and delights in honesty.

    1KI 22:42-43 Jehoshaphat did not remove the high places.

    2CH 17:5-6 He did remove them.

    2KI 2:11 Elijah went up to heaven.

    JN 3:13 Only the Son of Man (Jesus) has ever ascended to heaven.

    2CO 12:2-4 An unnamed man, known to Paul, went up to heaven and came back.

    HE 11:5 Enoch was translated to heaven.

    2KI 4:32-37 A dead child is raised (well before the time of Jesus).

    MT 9:18-25, JN 11:38-44 Two dead persons are raised (by Jesus himself).

    AC 26:23 Jesus was the first to rise from the dead.

    2KI 8:25-26 Ahaziah was 22 years old when he began his reign.

    2CH 22:2 He was 42 when he began his reign.

    [Note: Some translations use "twenty-two" here in an attempt to rectify this discrepancy. The Hebrew is clear, however, that 2CH 22:2 is 42. The Hebrew words involved are Strong's H705 and H8147, "forty" and "two," respectively.]

    2KI 9:27 Jehu shot Ahaziah near Ibleam. Ahaziah fled to Meggido and died there.

    2CH 22:9 Ahaziah was found hiding in Samaria, brought to Jehu, and put to death.

    2KI 16:5 The King of Syria and the son of the King of Israel did not conquer Ahaz.

    2CH 28:5-6 They did conquer Ahaz.

    2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin (Jehoiakim) was eighteen years old when he began to reign.

    2CH 36:9 He was eight.

    (Note: This discrepancy has been "corrected" in some versions.)

    2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin (Jehoiakim) reigned three months.

    2CH 36:9 He reigned three months and ten days.

    2KI 24:17 Jehoiachin (Jehoaikim) was succeeded by his uncle.

    2CH 36:10 He was succeeded by his brother.

    1CH 3:11-13 The lineage is: Joram, Ahaziah, Joash, Amaziah, Azariah, Jotham.

    MT 1:8-9 It is: Joram, Uzziah, Jotham, etc.

    1CH 3:19 Pedaiah was the father of Zerubbabel.

    ER 3:2 Shealtiel was the father of Zerubbabel.

    2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 There is no injustice or partiality with the Lord.

    RO 9:15-18 God has mercy on (and hardens the hearts of) whom he pleases.

    ER 2:3-64 (Gives the whole congregation as 42,360 while the actual sum of the numbers is about 30,000.)

    JB 2:3-6, 21:7-13, 2TI 3:12 The godly are persecuted and chastised but the wicked grow old, wealthy, and powerful, unchastised by God.

    PS 55:23, 92:12-14, PR 10:2-3, 27-31, 12:2, 21 The lives of the wicked are cut short. The righteous flourish and obtain favor from the Lord.

    PS 10:1 God cannot be found in time of need. He is "far off."

    PS 145:18 God is near to all who call upon him in truth.

    PS 22:1-2 God sometimes forsakes his children. He does not answer.

    PS 46:1 God is a refuge, a strength, a very present help.

    PS 30:5, JE 3:12, MI 7:18 God's anger does not last forever.

    JE 17:4, MT 25:46 It does last forever. (He has provided for eternal punishment.)

    PS 58:10-11 The righteous shall rejoice when he sees vengeance.

    PR 24:16-18 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls or stumbles.

    PS 78:69, EC 1:4, 3:14 The earth was established forever.

    PS 102:25-26, MT 24:35, MK 13:31, LK 21:33, HE 1:10-11, 2PE 3:10 The earth will someday perish.

    PR 3:13, 4:7, 19:8, JA 1:5 Happy is the man who finds wisdom. Get wisdom.

    LK 2:40, 52 Jesus was filled with wisdom and found favor with God.

    1CO 1:19-25, 3:18-20 Wisdom is foolishness.

    PR 12:2, RO 8:28 A good man obtains favor from the Lord.

    2TI 3:12, HE 12:6 The godly will be persecuted.

    PR 14:8 The wisdom of a prudent man is to discern his way.

    MT 6:25-34 Take no thought for tomorrow. God will take care of you.

    PR 14:15-18 The simple believe everything and acquire folly; the prudent look where they are going and are crowned with knowledge.

    MT 18:3, LK 18:17 You must believe as little children do.

    1CO 1:20, 27 God has made the wisdom of the world foolish so as to shame the wise.

    PR 16:4 God made the wicked for the "day of evil."

    MT 11:25, MK 4:11-12 God and Jesus hide some things from some people.

    JN 6:65 No one can come to Jesus unless it is granted by God.

    RO 8:28-30 Some are predestined to be called to God, believe in Jesus, and be justified.

    RO 9:15-18 God has mercy on, and hardens the hearts of, whom he pleases.

    2TH 2:11-12 God deceives the wicked so as to be able to condemn them.

    1TI 2:3-4, 2PE 3:9 [Yet] God wants all to be saved.

    PR 8:13, 16:6 It is the fear of God that keeps men from evil.

    1JN 4:18 There is no fear in love. Perfect love drives out fear.

    1JN 5:2, 2JN 1:6 Those who love God keep his commandments.

    PR 26:4 Do not answer a fool. To do so makes you foolish too.

    PR 26:5 Answer a fool. If you don't, he will think himself wise.

    PR 30:5 Every word of God proves true.

    JE 8:8 The scribes falsify the word of God.

    JE 20:7, EZ 14:9, 2TH 2:11-12 God himself deceives people.

    (Note: Some versions translate deceive as "persuade." The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.)

    IS 3:13 God stands to judge.

    JL 3:12 He sits to judge.

    IS 44:24 God created heaven and earth alone.

    JN 1:1-3 Jesus took part in creation.

    IS 53:9 Usually taken to be a prophecy re: Jesus, mentions burial with others.

    MT 27:58-60, MK 15:45-46, LK 23:52-53, JN 19:38-42 Jesus was buried by himself.

    JE 12:13 Some sow wheat but reap thorns.

    MI 6:15 Some sow but won't reap anything.

    MT 25:26, LK 19:22 Some reap without sowing.

    2CO 9:6, GA 6:7 A man reaps what he sows.

    JE 32:18 God shows love to thousands, but brings punishment for the sins of their fathers to many children.

    2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love.

    JE 34:4-5 Zedekiah was to die in peace.

    JE 52:10-11 Instead, Zedekaih's sons are slain before his eyes, his eyes are then put out, he is bound in fetters, taken to Babylon and left in prison to die.

    EZ 20:25-26 The law was not good. The sacrifice of children was for the purpose of horrifying the people so that they would know that God is Lord.

    RO 7:12, 1TI 1:8 The law is good.

    EZ 26:15-21 God says that Tyre will be destroyed and will never be found again.

    (Nebudchanezzar failed to capture or destroy Tyre. It is still inhabited.)

    DN 5:1 (Gives the title of "king" to Belshazzar although Belshazzar was actually the "viceroy.")

    DN 5:2 (Says that Nebuchadnezzar was the father of Belshazzar, but actually, Nebonidus was the father of Belshazzar.) (Note: Some versions attempt to correct this error by making the verse say that Nebuchadnezzar was the grandfather of Belshazzar.)

    ZE 11:12-13 Mentions "thirty pieces" and could possibly be thought to be connected with the Potter's Field prophesy referred to in Matthew.

    MT 27:9 Jeremiah is given as the source of the prophesy regarding the purchase of the Potter's Field. (Note: There is no such prophesy in Jeremiah.)

    MT 1:6-7 The lineage of Jesus is traced through David's son, Solomon.

    LK 3:23-31 It is traced through David's son, Nathan.

    (Note: Some apologists assert that Luke traces the lineage through Mary. That this is untrue is obvious from the context since Luke and Matthew both clearly state that Joseph was Jesus' father.)

    MT 1:16 Jacob was Joseph's father.

    LK 3:23 Heli was Joseph's father.

    MT 1:17 There were twenty-eight generations from David to Jesus.

    LK 3:23-38 There were forty-three.

    MT 1:18-21 The Annunciation occurred after Mary had conceived Jesus.

    LK 1:26-31 It occurred before conception.

    MT 1:20 The angel spoke to Joseph.

    LK 1:28 The angel spoke to Mary.

    MT 1:20-23, LK 1:26-33 An angel announces to Joseph and/or Mary that the child (Jesus) will be "great," the "son of the Most High," etc., and ….

    MT 3:13-17, MK 1:9-11 The baptism of Jesus is accompanied by the most extraordinary happenings, yet ….

    MK 3:21 Jesus' own relatives (or friends) attempt to constrain him, thinking that he might be out of his mind, and ….

    MK 6:4-6 Jesus says that a prophet is without honor in his own house (which certainly should not have been the case considering the Annunciation and the Baptism).

    MT 1:23 He will be called Emmanuel (or Immanuel).

    MT 1:25 Instead, he was called Jesus.

    MT 2:13-16 Following the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary flee to Egypt, (where they stay until after Herod's death) in order to avoid the murder of their firstborn by Herod. Herod slaughters all male infants two years old and under. (Note: John the Baptist, Jesus' cousin, though under two is somehow spared without fleeing to Egypt.)

    LK 2:22-40 Following the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary remain in the area of Jerusalem for the Presentation (about forty days) and then return to Nazareth without ever going to Egypt. There is no slaughter of the infants.

    MT 2:23 "And he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: He will be called a Nazarene.'" (This prophecy is not found in the OT and while Jesus is often referred to as "Jesus of Nazareth", he is seldom referred to as "Jesus the Nazarene.")

    MT 3:11-14, JN 1:31-34 John realized the true identity of Jesus (as the Messiah) either prior to the actual Baptism, or from the Baptism onward. The very purpose of John's baptism was to reveal Jesus to Israel.

    MT 11:2-3 After the Baptism, John sends his disciples to ask if Jesus is the Messiah.

    MT 3:12, 13:42 Hell is a furnace of fire (and must therefore be light).

    MT 8:12, 22:13, 25:30 Hell is an "outer darkness" (and therefore dark).

    MT 3:16, MK 1:10 It was Jesus who saw the Spirit descending.

    JN 1:32 It was John who saw the Spirit descending.

    MT 3:17 The heavenly voice addressed the crowd: "This is my beloved Son."

    MK 1:11, LK 3:22 The voice addressed Jesus: "You are my beloved Son…."

    MT 4:1-11, MK 1:12-13 Immediately following his Baptism, Jesus spent forty days in the wilderness resisting temptation by the Devil.

    JN 2:1-11 Three days after the Baptism, Jesus was at the wedding in Cana.

    MT 4:5-8 The Devil took Jesus to the pinnacle of the temple, then to the mountain top.

    LK 4:5-9 First to the mountain top, then to the pinnacle of the temple.

    MT 4:18-20, MK 1:16-18 (One story about choosing Peter as a disciple.)

    LK 5:2-11 (A different story.)

    JN 1:35-42 (Still another story.)

    MT 5:1 – 7:29 Jesus delivers his most noteworthy sermon while on the mount.

    LK 6:17-49 Jesus delivers his most noteworthy sermon while on the plain. (Note: No such sermons are mentioned in either MK or JN and Paul seems totally unfamiliar with either the sermon on the mount or the sermon on the plain.)

    MT 5:16 Good works should be seen.

    MT 6:1-4 They should be kept secret.

    MT 5:17-19, LK 16:17 Jesus underscores the permanence of the law.

    LE 10:8 – 11:47, DT 14:3-21 The law distinguishes between clean and unclean foods.

    MK 7:14-15, MK 7:18-19 Jesus says that there is no such distinction.

    1TI 4:1-4 All foods are clean according to Paul.

    MT 5:17-19, LK 16:17 Jesus did not come to abolish the law.

    EP 2:13-15, HE 7:18-19 Jesus did abolish the law.

    MT 5:22 Anyone who calls another a fool is liable to Hell.

    MT 7:26 Jesus says that anyone who hears his words and does not do them is a fool. (Note: The translation now prevalent, "like a foolish man," in MT 7:26 is a dishonest attempt to alleviate the obvious inconsistency here in that the oldest Greek manuscripts use the same Greek word translated "fool" in MT 5:22 and "like a foolish man" in MT 7:26.)

    MT 23:17-19 Jesus twice calls the Pharisees blind fools.

    MT 25:2, 3, 8 Jesus likens the maidens who took no oil to fools. (Note: This is the same Greek word translated "fool" in MT 5:22 and MT 23:17-19.)

    1CO 1:23, 3:18, 4:10 Paul uses "fool" with regard to Christians becoming fools for Christ. (Note: Again, this is the same Greek word translated "fool" in MT 5:22 and MT 23:17-19.)

    MT 5:22 Anger by itself is a sin.

    EP 4:26 Anger is not necessarily a sin.

    MT 5:22 Anger by itself is a sin.

    MT 11:22-24, LK 10:13-15 Jesus curses the inhabitants of several cities who are not sufficiently impressed with his mighty works.

    MT 21:19, MK 11:12-14 Jesus curses a fig tree when it fails to bear fruit out of season.

    MK 3:5 Jesus looks around "angrily."

    MT 5:32 Divorce, except on the grounds of unchastity, is wrong.

    MK 10:11-12 Divorce on any grounds is wrong.

    MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Jesus says: "Do not resist evil. Love your enemies."

    MT 6:15, 12:34, 16:3, 22:18, 23:13-15, 17, 19, 27, 29, 33, MK 7:6, LK 11:40, 44, 12:56 Jesus repeatedly hurls epithets at his opponents.

    MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Do not resist evil. Love your enemies.

    LK 19:27 God is likened to one who destroys his enemies.

    MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Do not resist evil. Love your enemies.

    2JN 1:9-11 Shun anyone who does not hold the proper doctrine.

    MT 5:43-44, MT 22:39 Love your enemies. Love your neighbor as yourself.

    MT 10:5 Go nowhere among the Gentiles nor enter a Samaritan town.

    JN 8:58-59 Jesus hid himself, apparently to avoid being stoned.

    MT 5:45, 7:21 God resides in heaven.

    MK 13:32 The angels reside in heaven

    AC 7:55, HE 12:2 Jesus is at the right hand of God, in heaven.

    1PE 1:3-4 Believers will inherit eternal life in heaven.

    MT 24:35, MK 13:31, LK 21:33 Heaven will pass away.

    MT 6:13 God might lead us into temptation and it is better avoided.

    JA 1:2-3 Temptation is joy.

    MT 6:13 Jesus' prayer implies that God might lead us into temptation.

    JA 1:13 God tempts no one.

    MT 6:25-34, LK 12:22-31 Take no thought for tomorrow. God will take care of you.

    1TI 5:8 A man who does not provide for his family is worse than an infidel. (Note: Providing for a family certainly involves taking "thought for tomorrow.")

    MT 7:1-2 Do not judge.

    MT 7:15-20 Instructions for judging a false prophet.

    MT 7:7-8, LK 11:9-10 Ask and it will be given. Seek and you will find.

    LK 13:24 Many will try to enter the Kingdom but will be unable.

    MT 7:21 Not everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

    AC 2:21, RO 10:13 Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

    AC 2:39 Those God calls to himself will be saved.

    MT 7:21, LK 10:36-37, RO 2:6, 13, JA 2:24 We are justified by works, not by faith.

    JN 3:16, RO 3:20-26, EP 2:8-9, GA 2:16 We are justified by faith, not by works.

    MT 8:5-12 The centurion himself approaches Jesus to ask to heal his servant.

    LK 7:2-10 The centurion sends elders to do the asking.

    MT 8:16, LK 4:40 Jesus healed all that were sick.

    MK 1:32-34 Jesus healed many (but not all).

    MT 8:28-33 Two demoniacs are healed in the Gadarene swine incident.

    MK 5:2-16, LK 8:26-36 One demoniac is healed in this incident.

    MT 9:18 The ruler's daughter was already dead when Jesus raised her.

    LK 8:42 She was dying, but not dead.

    MT 10:1-8 Jesus gives his disciples the power to exorcise and heal…

    MT 17:14-16 (Yet) the disciples are unable to do so.

    MT 10:2, MK 3:16-19 The twelve apostles (disciples) were: Simon (Peter), Andrew his brother, James the son of Zebedee, John his brother, Philip, Bartholemew, Thomas, Matthew the tax collector, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus (Labbaeus), Simon, and Judas Iscariot.

    LK 6:13-16 The above except that Thaddaeus (Labbaeus) is excluded, and Judas the son of James is added (and Judas Iscariot remains).

    AC 1:13, 26 Same as MT and MK except that, like LK Thaddaeus (Labbaeus) is excluded, Judas the son of James is included, and Mathias is chosen by the others to replace Judas Iscariot.

    MT 10:2, 5-6 Peter was to be an apostle to the Jews and not go near the Gentiles.

    AC 15:7 He was an apostle to the Gentiles.

    MT 10:10 Do not take sandals (shoes) or staves.

    MK 6:8-9 Take sandals (shoes) and staves.

    MT 10:34, LK 12:49-53 Jesus has come to bring a sword, fire, and division–not peace.

    JN 16:33 Jesus says: "In me you have peace."

    MT 10:22, 24:13, MK 13:13 He that endures to the end will be saved.

    MK 16:16 He that believes and is baptized will be saved.

    JN 3:5 Only he that is born of water and Spirit will be saved.

    AC 16:31 He that believes on the Lord Jesus will be saved.

    AC 2:21 He that calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

    RO 10:9 He who confesses with his mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead will be saved.

    1JN 4:7 He who loves is born of God (and presumably will be saved.)

    MT 10:28, LK 12:4 Jesus says not to fear men. (Fear God only.)

    MT 12:15-16, JN 7:1-10, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54 Jesus hid, escaped, went secretly, etc.

    MT 11:7-15, 17:12-13 Jesus says that John the Baptist was a prophet, and more.

    JN 1:21 John himself says that he is not a prophet, nor is he Elijah.

    MT 11:25, MK 4:11-12 Jesus thanks God for hiding some things from the wise while revealing them to "babes." He says that he uses parables so that the meaning of some of his teachings will remain hidden to at least some persons, and specifically so that they will not turn and be forgiven.

    MK 4:22 Jesus says that all things should be made known.

    MT 11:29 Jesus says that he is gentle (meek) and humble (lowly).

    JN 2:15 Jesus makes a whip of cords, drives the money changers from the Temple, overturns their tables, and pours out their coins. (Note: The presence of the money changers in the outer court of the Temple had been authorized by the Temple authorities and was, in fact, a necessity since the Jews would not accept Roman coin for the purchase of sacrifices.)

    MT 12:5 Jesus says that the law (OT) states that the priests profane the Sabbath but are blameless. (No such statement is found in the OT.

    MT 12:30 Jesus says that those who are not with him are against him.

    MK 9:40 Jesus says that those who are not against him are for him.

    (Note: This puts those who are indifferent or undecided in the "for him" category in the first instance and in the "against him" category in the second instance.)

    MT 12:39, MK 8:12, LK 11:29 Jesus says that he will give no "sign."

    JN 3:2, 20:30, AC 2:22 Jesus proceeds to give many such "signs."

    MT 13:34, MK 4:34 Jesus addresses the crowds only in parables, so that they would not fully understand. He explains the meaning only to his disciples.

    JN 1:1 – 21:25 (Throughout the book of John, unlike the other Gospels, Jesus addresses the crowds in a very straightforward manner. He does not employ parables.)

    MT 13:58, MK 6:5 In spite of his faith, Jesus is not able to perform mighty miracles.

    MT 17:20, 19:26, MK 9:23, 10:27, LK 17:6, 18:27 Jesus says that anything is possible to him who believes if he has the faith of a grain of mustard seed. All things are possible with God. A mountain can be commanded to move and it will move.

    MT 5:37, 15:19, MK 7:22, JN 8:14, 44, 14:6, 18:37 Jesus says that you should answer a plain "yes" or "no," that his purpose is to bear witness to the truth, and that his testimony is true. He equates lying with evil.

    JN 7:2-10 Jesus tells his brothers that he is not going to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Tabernacles, then later goes secretly by himself. (Note: The words "not yet" were added to some versions at JN 7:8 in order to alleviate this problem. The context at JN 7:10 makes the deception clear, however.)

    MT 16:6, 11 Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

    MK 8:15 Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Herod.

    MT 16:18 Jesus founds his church on Peter and will give him the keys of the kingdom.

    MT 16:23 Jesus calls Peter [a] "Satan" and "a hindrance," and accuses him of being on the side of men rather than that of God.

    MT 16:18 Jesus founds his church on Peter and will give him the keys of the kingdom.

    AC 15:1-21 James presides over the first Council of Jerusalem and formulates the decree regarding the accepting of Gentiles which is sent to the other churches. (Note: Tradition has it that James was appointed as the first Bishop or Pope, not Peter.)

    MT 17:1-2 The Transfiguration occurs six days after Jesus foretells his suffering.

    LK 9:28-29 It takes place about eight days afterwards.

    MT 20:20-21 The mother of James and John asks Jesus a favor for her sons.

    MK 10:35-37 They ask for themselves.

    MT 20:23, MK 10:40 Jesus responds that it is not his to give.

    MT 28:18, JN 3:35 All authority has been given to Jesus.

    MT 20:29-34 Jesus heals two blind men on the way to Jericho.

    MK 10:46-52 He heals one blind man.

    MT 21:1-17 The sequence was: triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple, Bethany.

    MK 11:1-19 Triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple.

    LK 19:28-48 Triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple, daily teaching in the temple.

    JN 12:1-18 Cleansing of the temple (early in his career), Supper with Lazarus, triumphal entry, no cleansing of the temple following the triumphal entry.

    MT 21:2-6, MK 11:2-7, LK 19:30-35 The disciples follow Jesus instructions and bring him the animal (or animals, in the case of MT).

    JN 12:14 Jesus finds the animal himself.

    MT 21:7 Jesus rides two animals during his triumphal entry.

    MK 11:7, LK 19:35, JN 12:14 Only one animal is involved.

    MT 21:12-13 The cleansing of the temple occurs at the end of Jesus' career.

    JN 2:13-16 It occurs near the beginning of his career.

    MT 21:19-20 The fig tree withers immediately after being cursed by Jesus. The disciples notice and are amazed.

    MK 11:13-14, 20-21 The disciples first notice that the tree has withered the day following.

    MT 23:35 Jesus says that Zacharias (Zechariah) was the son of Barachias (Barachiah).

    2CH 24:20 Zacharias was actually the son of Jehoida, the priest.

    (Note: The name Barachias, or Barachiah, does not appear in the O.T.)

    MT 24:29-33, MK 13:24-29 The coming of the kingdom will be accompanied by signs and miracles.

    LK 17:20-21 It will not be accompanied by signs and miracles. It is already within.

    MT 25:34 Heaven was prepared before the Ascension of Jesus.

    JN 14:2-3 It was prepared after the Ascension of Jesus.

    MT 26:6-13, MK 14:3 The anointing of Jesus takes place in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper.

    LK 7:36-38 It takes place at the house of a Pharisee in Galilee.

    MT 26:7, MK 14:3 The oil is poured on Jesus' head.

    LK 7:38, JN 12:3 On his feet.

    MT 26:7, MK 14:3, LK 7:37 An unnamed woman does the anointing.

    JN 12:3 It is Mary.

    MT 28:6-8 The women ran from the tomb "with great joy."

    JN 20:1-2 Mary told Peter and the other disciple that the body had been stolen. (Would she feel "great joy" if she thought the body had been stolen?)

    MT 26:8 The disciples reproach her.

    MK 14:4 "Some" reproach her.

    JN 12:4-5 Judas Iscariot reproaches her.

    MT 26:14-25, MK 14:10-11, LK 22:3-23 Judas made his bargain with the chief priests before the meal.

    JN 13:21-30 After the meal.

    MT 26:20-29, MK 14:17-28, JN 13:21-30 Jesus forecasts his betrayal prior to the communion portion of the supper.

    LK 22:14-23 After the communion portion.

    MT 26:26-29, MK 14:22-25 The order of the communion was: bread, then wine.

    LK 22:17-20 It was: wine, then bread.

    MT 26:34, LK 22:34, JN 13:38 Peter was to deny Jesus before the cock crowed.

    MK 14:30 Before the cock crowed twice.

    MK 14:66-72 The cock crows after both the first and second denials.

    (Note: These discrepancies have been "translated out" in some Bible versions.)

    MT 26:40-45, MK 14:37-41 The disciples fall asleep three times.

    LK 22:45 One time.

    MT 26:49-50, MK 14:44-46 Jesus is betrayed by Judas with a kiss, then seized.

    LK 22:47-48 Jesus anticipates Judas' kiss. No actual kiss is mentioned.

    JN 18:2-9 Jesus voluntarily steps forward to identify himself making it completely unnecessary for Judas to point him out. No kiss is mentioned.

    MT 26:51, MK 14:47, JN 18:10 The ear of a slave is cut off and left that way.

    LK 22:50-51 The severed ear is miraculously healed by Jesus.

    MT 26:52 Dispose of swords. All who take the sword will perish by it.

    LK 22:36-38 Buy swords.

    MT 26:57, MK 14:53, LK 22:54 After his arrest Jesus is first taken to Caiphas, the high priest.

    JN 18:13-24 First to Annas, the son-in-law of Caiphas, then to Caiphas.

    MT 26:18-20, 57-68, 27:1-2, MK 14:16-18, 53-72, 15:1 Jesus' initial hearing was at night on Passover. In the morning he was taken to Pilate.

    LK 22:13-15, 54-66 The initial hearing took place in the morning on Passover.

    JN 18:28, 19:14 It took place the day before Passover, on the Day of Preparation.

    MT 26:59-66, MK 14:55-64 Jesus was tried by the entire Sanhedrin (the chief priests and the whole council).

    LK 22:66-71 There was no trial but merely an inquiry held by the Sanhedrin.

    JN 18:13-24 There was no appearance before the Sanhedrin, only the private hearings before Annas and then Caiphas.

    MT 26:63, LK 22:70 The high priest asks Jesus if he is the Son of God.

    MK 14:61 He asks Jesus if he is the Son of the Blessed.

    MT 26:64, LK 22:70 Jesus answers: "You have said so," or words to this effect.

    MK 14:62 He answers directly: "I am."

    MT 26:69-70 Peter makes his first denial to a maid and "them all."

    MK 14:66-68, LK 22:56-57, JN 18:17 It was to one maid only.

    MT 26:71-72 Peter's second denial is to still another maid.

    MK 14:69-70 (Apparently) to the same maid.

    LK 22:58 To a man, not a maid.

    JN 18:25 To more than one, "they."

    MT 26:73-74, MK 14:70-71 Peter's third denial is to bystanders (two or more).

    LK 22:59-60 To "another" (one).

    JN 18:26-27 To one of the servants.

    MT 26:74 The cock crowed once.

    MK 14:72 The cock crowed twice.

    MT 27:3-7 The chief priests bought the field.

    AC 1:16-19 Judas bought the field.

    MT 27:5 Judas threw down the pieces of silver, then departed.

    AC 1:18 He used the coins to buy the field.

    MT 27:5 Judas hanged himself.

    AC 1:18 He fell headlong, burst open, and his bowels gushed out.

    MT 27:11, MK 15:2, LK 23:3 When asked if he is King of the Jews, Jesus answers: "You have said so," (or "Thou sayest").

    JN 18:33-34 He answers: "Do you say this of your own accord?"

    MT 27:11-14 Jesus answers not a single charge at his hearing before Pilate.

    JN 18:33-37 Jesus answers all charges at his hearing before Pilate.

    MT 27:20 The chief priests and elders are responsible for persuading the people to ask for the release of Barabbas.

    MK 15:11 Only the chief priests are responsible.

    LK 23:18-23 The people ask, apparently having decided for themselves.

    MT 27:28 Jesus is given a scarlet robe (a sign of infamy).

    MK 15:17, JN 19:2 A purple robe (a sign of royalty).

    MT 27:32, MK 15:21, LK 23:26 Simon of Cyrene carries Jesus' cross.

    JN 19:17 Jesus carries his own cross with no help from anyone.

    MT 27:37 The inscription on the cross read: "This is Jesus the King of the Jews."

    MK 15:26 "The King of the Jews."

    LK 23:38 "This is the King of the Jews."

    JN 19:19 "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews."

    MT 27:44 Both of those who are crucified with Jesus taunt him.

    LK 23:39-42 Only one taunts Jesus, and he is rebuked by the other for doing so.

    MT 27:46 Jesus asks God, the Father, why he has been forsaken.

    JN 10:30 Jesus says that he and the Father are one.

    MT 27:46-50, MK 15:34-37 Jesus' last recorded words are: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

    LK 23:46 "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit."

    JN 19:30 "It is finished." (Note: Even though both MT and MK represent direct quotes and are translated similarly, the actual Greek words used for God are different. MT uses "Eli" and MK uses "Eloi.")

    MT 27:48, LK 23:36, JN 19:29 Jesus was offered vinegar to drink.

    MK 15:23 It was wine and myrrh, and he did not drink it.

    JN 19:29-30 Whatever it was, he did drink it.

    MT 27:54 The centurion says: "Truly this was the son of God."

    MK 15:39 He says: "Truly this man was the son of God!"

    LK 23:47 He says: "Truly this man was innocent" (or "righteous").

    MT 27:55, MK 15:40, LK 23:49 The women looked on from afar.

    JN 19:25-26 They were near enough that Jesus could speak to his mother.

    MT 27:62-66 A guard was placed at the tomb (the day following the burial).

    MK 15:42- 16:8, LK 23:50-56, JN 19:38-42 (No guard is mentioned. This is important since rumor had it that Jesus' body was stolen and the Resurrection feigned.)

    MK 16:1-3, LK 24:1 (There could not have been a guard, as far as the women were concerned, since they were planning to enter the tomb with spices. Though the women were aware of the stone, they were obviously unaware of a guard.)

    MT 24:9 Even some of the disciples of Jesus will be killed.

    JN 8:51 If anyone keeps Jesus' words, he will never see death.

    HE 9:27 [All] men die once, then judgement follows.

    MT 28:1 The first visitors to the tomb were Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (two).

    MK 16:1 Both of the above plus Salome (three).

    LK 23:55 – 24:1, 24:10 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "other women" (at least five).

    JN 20:1 Mary Magdalene only (one).

    MT 28:1 It was toward dawn when they arrived.

    MK 16:2 It was after sunrise.

    LK 24:1 It was at early dawn.

    JN 20:1 It was still dark.

    MT 28:1-2 The stone was still in place when they arrived. It was rolled away later.

    MK 16:4, LK 24:2, JN 20:1 The stone had already been rolled (or taken) away.

    MT 28:2 An angel arrived during an earthquake, rolled back the stone, then sat on it (outside the tomb).

    MK 16:5 No earthquake, only one young man sitting inside the tomb.

    LK 24:2-4 No earthquake. Two men suddenly appear standing inside the tomb.

    JN 20:12 No earthquake. Two angels are sitting inside the tomb.

    MT 28:8 The visitors ran to tell the disciples.

    MK 16:8 They said nothing to anyone.

    LK 24:9 They told the eleven and all the rest.

    JN 20:10-11 The disciples returned home. Mary remained outside, weeping.

    MT 28:8-9 Jesus' first Resurrection appearance was fairly near the tomb.

    LK 24:13-15 It was in the vicinity of Emmaus (seven miles from Jerusalem).

    JN 20:13-14 It was right at the tomb.

    MT 28:9 On his first appearance to them, Jesus lets Mary Magdalene and the other Mary hold him by his feet.

    JN 20:17 On his first appearance to Mary, Jesus forbids her to touch him since he has not yet ascended to the Father.

    JN 20:27 A week later, although he has not yet ascended to the Father, Jesus tells Thomas to touch him.

    MT 28:7-10, MT 28:16 Although some doubted, the initial reaction of those that heard the story was one of belief since they followed the revealed instructions.

    MK 16:11, LK 24:11 The initial reaction was one of disbelief. All doubted.

    MT 28:1-18 The order of Resurrection appearances was: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, then the eleven.

    MK 16:9-14 It was Mary Magdalene, then two others, then the eleven.

    LK 24:15-36 It was two, then Simon (Peter?), then the eleven.

    JN 20:14 – 21:1 It was Mary Magdalene, then the disciples without Thomas, then the disciples with Thomas, then the eleven disciples again.

    1CO 15:5-8 It was Cephas (Peter?), then the "twelve" (which twelve, Judas was dead?), then 500+ brethren (although AC 1:15 says there were only about 120), then James, then all the Apostles, then Paul.

    MT 28:19 Jesus instructs his disciples to baptize.

    1CO 1:17 Although he considers himself a disciple of Jesus, Paul says that he has not been sent to baptize.

    MK 1:2 Jesus quotes a statement that allegedly appears in Isaiah. No such statement appears in Isaiah. (Note: IS 40.3 is seen by some as equivalent to MK 1.2; MA 3.1 is a much better fit, however, given that Jesus is allegedly quoting word for word in MK 1:2.)

    MK 1:14 Jesus began his ministry after the arrest of John the Baptist.

    JN 3:22-24 Before the arrest of John the Baptist.

    MK 1:23-24 A demon cries out that Jesus is the Holy One of God.

    1JN 4:1-2 Everyone who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God. (Note: This would mean that the demon is of God.)

    MK 3:29 Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin.

    AC 13:39, CN 2:13, 1JN 1:9 All sins are forgivable.

    MK 4:11-12, 11:25 Jesus says that he uses parables so that the meaning of some of his teachings will remain secret to at least some persons. He explains the meanings of the parables only to his disciples. He thanks God for hiding some things from the wise while revealing them to "babes."

    JN 18:20 Jesus says that he always taught openly, never secretly.

    MK 6:16 Herod was the source of the belief that John had been raised from the dead.

    LK 9:7 Others were the source. Herod was perplexed by the belief.

    MK 6:52 The people were so unimpressed with "the Feeding of the Multitude" that they did not even understand the event.

    JN 6:14-15 They were so impressed that they tried to force Jesus to be their king.

    MK 6:53 After the feeding of the 5000, Jesus and the disciples went to Gennesaret.

    JN 6:17-25 They went to Capernaum.

    MK 15:25 It was the third hour when Jesus was crucified.

    JN 19:14-15 It was after the sixth hour since Jesus was still before Pilate and had not yet been sentenced at that time.

    MK 16:1-2 The women came to the tomb to anoint the body.

    JN 19:39-40 The body had already been anointed and wrapped in linen cloth.

    MK 16:5, LK 24:3 The women actually entered the tomb.

    JN 20:1-2, 11 They did not.

    MK 16:14-19 The Ascension took place (presumably from a room) while the disciples were together seated at a table, probably in or near Jerusalem.

    LK 24:50-51 It took place outdoors, after supper, at Bethany (near Jerusalem).

    AC 1:9-12 It took place outdoors, after 40+ days, at Mt. Olivet.

    MT 28:16-20 No mention is made of an ascension, but if it took place at all, it must have been from a mountain in Galilee since MT ends there.)

    LK 1:15 John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit from before his birth or the birth of Jesus.

    LK 1:41 Elizabeth had it long before Jesus went away.

    LK 1:67 So did Zechariah.

    LK 2:25 So did Simeon.

    LK 11:13 It is obtained by prayer (presumably at any time).

    JN 7:39, JN 16:7, AC 1:3-5 The Holy Spirit cannot come into the world until after Jesus has departed.

    LK 8:12 The Devil causes unbelief.

    MK 4:11-12 Jesus is responsible for unbelief in at least some cases.

    2TH 2:11-12 God is ultimately responsible for unbelief in at least some cases.

    LK 14:26 No one can be a disciple of Jesus unless he hates his parents, wife, children, brothers and sisters.

    1JN 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer.

    1JN 4:20 If anyone claims to love God but hates his brother, he is a liar.

    LK 18:9-14 Do not boast of your virtue.

    RO 11:20, 1PE 5:5 Do not be proud.

    RO 15:17, 2CO 1:12, HE 3:6, 2CO 2:14, 5:12, 11:17 Paul boasts of his faith and says that one should be proud of it.

    LK 22:3-23 Satan entered Judas before the supper.

    JN 13:27 It was during the supper.

    LK 23:43 Jesus promises one of those crucified with him that they will be together, that very day, in Paradise.

    JN 20:17, AC 1:3 Jesus was not raised until the third day and did not ascend until at least forty days later.

    LK 23:55-56 The women followed Joseph to the tomb, saw how the body had been laid, then went to prepare spices with which to anoint the body.

    JN 19:39-40 Joseph brought spices with him (75 or a 100 lbs.) and annointed the body (as the women should have noticed).

    JN 1:1, 10:30 Jesus and God are one.

    JN 14:28 God is greater than Jesus.

    JN 1:1 Jesus was God incarnate.

    AC 2:22 Jesus was a man approved by God.

    JN 3:17, 8:15, 12:47 Jesus does not judge.

    JN 5:22, 5:27-30, 9:39, AC 10:42, 2CO 5:10 Jesus does judge.

    JN 5:22 God does not judge.

    RO 2:2-5, 3:19, 2TH 1:5, 1PE 1:17 God does judge.

    JN 5:24 Believers do not come into judgement.

    MT 12:36, RO 5:18, 2CO 5:10, HE 9:27, 1PE 1:17, JU 1:14-15, RE 20:12-13 All persons (including believers) come into judgement.

    JN 5:31 Jesus says that if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is not true.

    JN 8:14 Jesus says that even if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is true.

    JN 5:38-47 Men have a choice as to whether or not to receive Jesus.

    JN 6:44 No one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father.

    JN 7:38 Jesus quotes a statement that he says appears in scripture (i.e., the OT).

    (No such statement is found in the OT.)

    JN 10:27-29 None of Jesus' followers will be lost.

    1TI 4:1 Some of them will be lost.

    JN 12:31 The Devil is the ruler (or "prince") of this world.

    1CO 10:26, RE 1:5 Jesus is the ruler of kings–the earth is his.

    JN 12:32 Jesus implies that all persons will be saved.

    1TI 2:3-4, 2PE 3:9 God wants all to be saved.

    JN 12:40, AC 2:21, 2:39, RO 9:27, 10:13 Some will not be saved.

    RE 14:1-4 Heaven will be inhabited by 144,000 virgin men (only?).

    JN 13:36 Peter asks Jesus where he is going.

    JN 14:5 Thomas does the same.

    JN 16:5 Jesus says that none of them have asked him where he is going.

    JN 17:12 Jesus has lost none of his disciples other than Judas.

    JN 18:9 Jesus has lost none, period.

    JN 17:12 Mentions a "son of perdition" as appearing in scripture (meaning the OT).

    (Note: There is no "son of perdition" mentioned in the OT.)

    JN 18:37 Jesus came into the world to bear witness to the truth.

    RO 1:18-20 The truth has always been evident.

    JN 20:9 Jesus quotes a statement that he says appears in scripture (meaning the OT). (No such statement is found in the OT.)

    JN 20:22 In his first resurrection appearance before the assembled disciples, Jesus gives them the Holy Spirit.

    AC 1:3-5, AC 2:1-4 The Holy Spirit was received much later (on Pentecost.)

    JN 21:25 The world probably could not contain the books if all that Jesus did were to be written.

    AC 1:1 The author of Acts has already written about all that Jesus began to do.

    AC 5:19, 12:6-11 The disciples take part in a jailbreak made possible by an angel.

    AC 5:40-42 The disciples disobey the Council and continue to teach and preach Jesus.

    RO 13:1-4, 1PE 2:13-15 Obey the laws of men (i.e., government). It is the will of God.

    AC 5:29 Obey God, not men.

    RO 13:1-4, 1PE 2:13-15 Obey the laws of men (i.e., government). It is the will of God.

    AC 9:7 Those present at Paul's conversion heard the voice but saw no one.

    AC 22:9 They saw a light but did not hear a voice.

    AC 9:7 Those present at Paul's conversion stood.

    AC 26:14 They fell to the ground.

    AC 9:19-28 Shortly after his conversion, Paul went to Damascus, then Jerusalem where he was introduced to the Apostles by Barnabas, and there spent some time with them (going in and out among them).

    GA 1:15-20 He made the trip three years later, then saw only Peter and James.

    AC 9:23 The governor attempted to seize Paul.

    2CO 11:32 It was the Jews who tried to seize Paul.

    AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.

    RO 9:11-13 God hated Esau and loved Jacob even before their birth.

    AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.

    RO 9:18 God has mercy on whoever he chooses, etc.

    AC 16:6 The Holy Spirit forbids preaching in Asia.

    AC 19:8-10 Paul preaches in Asia anyway.

    AC 20:35 Quotes Jesus as having said: "It is more blessed to give than to receive." (No such statement of Jesus is found elsewhere in the Bible.)

    RO 2:12 All who have sinned without the law will perish without the law.

    RO 4:15 Where there is no law there is no transgression (sin).

    RO 2:13 Doers of the law will be justified.

    RO 3:20, GA 3:11 They will not be justified.

    RO 2:15 The law is written on the heart. Conscience teaches right from wrong.

    1JN 2:27 Anointing by Jesus teaches right from wrong.

    RO 4:9 Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.

    JA 2:21 Abraham was justified by works (which made his faith perfect).

    RO 10:11 (An alleged OT quote; no such statement in the OT.)

    RO 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything that might cause your brother to stumble or be offended.

    CN 2:16 Let no one pass judgement on you in matters of food and drink.

    1CO 7:8-9 Widows should not marry (although it is better to marry than burn).

    1TI 5:14 Young widows should marry, bear children, rule the household, etc..

    1CO 8:4 There is only one God.

    2CO 4:4 Satan is God of this world (therefore there are at least two gods).

    1CO 10:33 Paul says that he tries to please men (so they might be saved).

    GA 1:10 Paul says he would not be a servant of Christ if he tried to please men.

    2CO 12:16 Paul says that he does use trickery.

    1TH 2:3 Paul says that he does not use trickery.

    GA 6:2 Bear one another's burdens.

    GA 6:5 Bear your own burden.

    1TH 2:2 God gave Paul the courage to continue his work.

    1TH 2:17-18 Satan hindered Paul.

    (Note: Who is stronger, Satan or God?)

    1TI 1:15 Paul says that he is the foremost of sinners.

    1JN 3:8-10 He who commits sin is of the Devil. Children of God do not sin.

    1TI 6:20, 2TI 2:14-16, 3:1-7 Do not argue with an unbeliever.

    2JN 1:10-11 Anyone who even greets an unbeliever shares his wicked work.

    CN 4:5-6 Be wise in your behavior with outsiders. Let your talk be with grace, mixed with salt, so that you may be able to give an answer to everyone.

    1PE 3:15 Always be ready to answer any man concerning your faith.

    JA 4:5 (Quotes an alleged OT scripture verse not found in the OT.)

    RE 8:7 All of the grass on earth is burned up, and then …

    RE 9:4 An army of locusts, which is about to be turned loose on the earth, is instructed not to harm the grass.

    ***************************************************

    There are hundreds of these. I'm SURE there are more than listed here.

    So… God either CAN contradict himself, or there is no God.

  308. Chris, but interestingly enough the current Mormon Church contradicts the Book of Mormon in that it teaches that God was once a man before He became God when the BOM says in several places that God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever so if He never changes, then He couldn't been a man first but in fact He has always been God.

    Also, the BOM teaches that God is spirit but the Mormon Church now teaches that God has a physical body just like we do.

    So if Mormons consider the BOM to be the word of God, then how come they don't follow all of its teachings?

    I don't believe the BOM is the word of God but it does, in some places, borrows heavily from the Bible so there is some truth in but it really isn't needed as the Bible is really all we need.m

  309. I got your point after the first few lines, Nathan. :D You got me, I had never noticed contradictions in the Bible except between the four gospels. I'm thinking they are there for a reason and only God knows why. I don't believe God can make mistakes and I believe the Word of God to be infallible, so since Jesus teaches us not to worry, I will do just that and trust that God has a reason for those contradictions. One can say it's all human error left by the writers, but like I said, I don't believe that God would allow mistakes in his Holy Word.

  310. Chris, then why would it be so ridiculous to believe that the Book of Mormon's contradictions with the bible is under the same scrutiny? If you excuse all these inconsistencies, what makes it more likely to be the word of god than the Book of Mormon? Or any other book, for that matter?

    I feel like you are not thinking very critically, nor unbiasedly.

  311. The Word of God is thousands of years old and yet it is still widely circulated and used by millions (perhaps billions) of people. The Book of Mormon has only been used among Mormons. I think if it was the true word of God, it would be as widespread as the Bible is. God would open our hearts and allow us to see it is his true word. That is what he has done with the Holy Bible but he obviously has not done with The Book of Mormon or any other religious document. I have prayed about this quite earnestly and believe that God has shared with me the knowledge of what his true word is. You don't need to try and convince me otherwise. I will let God do that if need be. ;)

  312. Nathan: Here is a site that addresses biblical contradictions and shoots them down.

    http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/689-does

  313. First of all, this website says that people who claim to have found contradictions can't give any examples, whereas I've found plenty and have listed over a hundred above. Sure, I suppose some of their explanations can discount a few of said contradictions, but definitely not all of them.

    Second, they use a lot of faulty logic to claim the bible to not contain contradiction.

    "God, although using human writers in the composition of the Bible, is nevertheless its ultimate Author. And since the perfect God cannot be the source of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) or contradiction (Hebrews 6:18), it must be acknowledged that the Bible is perfectly harmonious."

    This is circular, and a logical fallacy. It claims that the bible is the word of god because it says so in the bible, which is the word of god, therefore not under scrutiny of logic.

    This is ridiculous. I do not feel obligated to believe in a god who has blessed us with intellect, reason, and free will, and then asks us to forgo them.

    For example: The bible says that the Earth is about 6,000-10,000 years old (depending on how you interpret certain verses. It also states that there was no death before the fall of Adam. How, then, do you explain clear fossil records showing death occurring MILLIONS and MILLIONS of years ago. Not only that, but there are stars and galaxies that are billions and billions of light years away. It has been proven by science over and over again that light goes at a finite speed, thus meaning the light from those stars and galaxies would NECESSARILY had to have been moving for billions and billions of years. The only way to explain these away is to say that God set things up in such a way to make it appear like these things are like this to test our faith, but as stated above "God is not a source for confusion."

  314. Do you even believe and follow God? It is not up to us to question him, but to follow him. In Luke 12:22-34, Jesus tells us to NOT WORRY. This falls under that command…if you believe in an inking of what the Holy Bible says, they you should follow this command as I will. We are not commanded to look for errors in his Word, but to "take up our cross and follow him". (Luke 9:23)

  315. You are commanded to blindly follow, despite evidence to the contrary? That sounds like a cult to me. You find it moral to follow teachings that say to stone those to death that work on sunday? It's totally kosher to simply take on a code of ethics that explains how to properly trades slaves and discriminate against fellow human beings? Or is that up to interpretation?

    Don't worry about it, you say. Just follow a philosophy created during a barbaric and crude time before a scientific view of the world was seen? How is that logical or even ethical?

    That's right. Just don't worry about it. Regardless of the fact that there is no actual evidence of a God existing, just follow the teachings of men muddy with hypocrisy. Don't use your own "god given" brain. Don't question. Just blindly follow. Be a sheep and ignore facts. Interesting way to live.

  316. it is my belief that the goals of all religion is to create a code of which people are to follow in order to live among other humans in the smoothest most peaceful way possible.

    to often people in a conflict get stuck on their positions and forget the every conflict is really an opportunity for the parties to grow and evolve towards peace and prosperity.

    throw down your shackles of a closed minds and accept anyone, no matter how different they or their beliefs are, for the very fact that we all on this stupid rock together.

  317. Toby said, "it is my belief that the goals of all religion is to create a code of which people are to follow in order to live among other humans in the smoothest most peaceful way possible.

    to often people in a conflict get stuck on their positions and forget the every conflict is really an opportunity for the parties to grow and evolve towards peace and prosperity.

    throw down your shackles of a closed minds and accept anyone, no matter how different they or their beliefs are, for the very fact that we all on this stupid rock together."

    I am not in conflict with anyone as all I do is present my beliefs and why I believe what I believe with the Bible as my source but it up to others to decide if they believe as I do or not.

    I can agree to disagree with others and promise never to harm anyone despite our difference of our belief.

    Joshua and I have been doing so for about a year and a half now without any malice toward each other at all.

  318. The bottom line is, have people repented and truly acknowledged to themselves and to God that they are sinners who are lost and who cannot ever save themselves by anything they do and that any works they do are woefully inadequate to at all contribute to the task?

    By the way, saved means eternal life that after we die we will for sure be in the mansions where Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are and it does not just mean that we will live in the afterlife and maybe we will be able to progress by our works to be in those mansions in the future, what the Mormons would refer to as the Celestial Kingdom.

    To be saved we must trust and believe who Jesus Christ is and that He is Lord, meaning He is the one and only Son of God, that He is nothing short of God Almighty and that He has always been nothing less than this, even when He walked this earth as a man, we must also trust and believe with all our hearts that Jesus died on the cross in our place, and that He rose again on the third day and we must willingly confess this with our mouths.

    Jesus couldn’t have been the perfect blameless, blemish free, sinless sacrifice if He wasn’t anything short of God Almighty that replaced once and for all the blemish free innocent animals of the Old Testament that had to be sacrificed over and over again.

    The Bible does say that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved but it is important who it is we are calling on as Jesus Christ is not merely, as the Mormons say, our older brother who is the brother of Satan whose salvation plan was accepted instead of His brother’s plan and Jesus is not just the god of this earth but He is the God of this universe and if there are any other universes, then He is the God of those universes as well.

    Note also that the name Jesus was a common name day back in the period of Jesus Christ’s time on earth so calling on the name of one of those other Jesus will not save anyone just as today Jesus is a common name in some countries so, also, calling on the name of say Jesus from Mexico will not save anyone either.

    I pray and hope this Christmas that people take these things to heart and question what the Mormon Church teaches and that they just use the Bible but not the JST version, but the KJV, NKJV, or any other mainstream translation as their only source and nothing else, it will open up your eyes to the truth.

    But if anyone doesn’t believe, then they are heading towards not a lower level of heaven but to Outer Darkness (Hell). That there are not three levels of heaven to go to and that we only have a chance to get it right while we are here on earth. Thank God that Jesus Christ did get it right by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day so trust and believe completely in who He is and what He did and not in anything you do and you will be saved.

  319. I don’t believe anyone has truly repented if they think they can become a god and have anyone such as their spirit children worship them if they don’t truly believe with all their heart that Jesus is Lord and they are not Lord and that they never will be.

    There is only one true God and none of us can ever be Him as we are the worshipers and He is the worshipee, if there is such a word.

    Besides, the Bible says no one is to worship anyone except the one true God so even if there is such a thing as spirit children, then they are only supposed to worship the only true God and no one else.

    Exodus 34:14

    "14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God"

  320. The Mormon religion is false, & it saddens me that so many people have fallen victim to this cult. Joseph Smith is a false prophet.

    "But even if we, or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that person be condemned." ~ Galatians 1:8

    I pray that all Mormons will repent & ask Christ's forgiveness before it's too late.

  321. Desarae, Jesus Christ is the Lord of everyone for all time and human beings are the Lord of no one. So, as I stated, I don't believe anyone has truly repented if they think they can be gods and that they are being disobidient if they think they can become gods.

    Matthew 22:30

    30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven."

    Notice how it doesn’t say that people will be gods in the resurrection but that they will be like angels in heaven who worship God because people, just like angels, are created beings who will also worship God but who are never, ever to be worshipped so we, like angels, will not progress to be gods but be as the angels are always.

    There are several places in the Bible where someone fell down to worship an angel but the angel told the person who was worshipping them not to worship them but to worship God.

    Revelation 19:9-10

    9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

    Revelation 22:8-9

    8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

    9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

    Again, as I stated in my last post, even if people do have spirit children in the afterlife, I don't believe they will have them, but for the purpose of making a point here those spirit children would be required to only worhip God and no one else and worshipping God only was not just for the time of the exodus but for all times as seen by the passages earlier in this post from the Book of Revelation.

    Exodus 34:14

    14 for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God

    I know Joshua, the owner of this blog, will say that our interpretation of the Bible is different than Mormons' interpretation and while certain terms mean something different, there is really no way to interpret the Bible to say that we can become gods.

    Joshua also says that external sources are needed to bring clarification to what the Bible means but those external sources, Mormon scriptures and teachings of their various church leaders past and present, contradict the Bible they don't bring clarication to it.

  322. This explains why Mormons are almost all Republicans. What better marriage of narcissism and a political ideology that tells you that that it is your patriotic duty to be greedy and hate the poor with a religion that tells you that you are God. Hey, what was that temptation in the wilderness thing… remind me… what did Lucifer offer Jesus? Oh! and what was Lucifer's temptation for Adam and Eve? Wasn't it to be like God? And now there is an entire 'Christian' religion based around that same concept? Sounds pretty Anti-Christian to me. Anti… christ. Think about that for a second.

  323. I think that most people posting here are a little ahead of themselves. As a Latter-day Saint, I agree with all that Joshua Steimle has said in his original post, but I also think it's too much. We must focus on the baby steps we've been given. I had someone ask me if I thought I would have my own planet one day, and my answer was that I was working on buying my own house. Most of us are struggling to become masters of our own bodies – to get our own appetites and passions under control. I think we all need to work on following the Savior by the light we've been given. There are plenty of opportunities to acquire the attributes of the Savior right here at hand. Yes, He can make planets and galaxies and He has promised that one day we will be like Him. In the meantime, let's focus on caring for the sick and afflicted who are right here. Let's focus on living within our incomes and creating enough extra so that we have something to offer to the poor. Let's focus on controlling our appetites and addictions so that our bodies can truly be temples of the Holy Spirit and so that we will be healthy enough to be good servants to our Savior and our Father in Heaven. Let's focus on keeping the commandments we've been given.
    If the reward for solving your problems is that you are given bigger problems to solve, one day we may qualify to solve the problems associated with building a universe. But, for now, let's focus on solving the problems we have close at hand.

  324. Kent wrote: "the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God”

    How does that square with: "The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control?" Galatians 5:22-23

    Should I believe what you say, or Galatians?

    Or should I believe the bible-thumper above, Chris, who admits contradictions are rife in the Bible, and that we can't know what God means?

    You Christians just can't get your act straight.

  325. Chris wrote,

    ” I’m thinking they are there for a reason and only God knows why. I don’t believe God can make mistakes and I believe the Word of God to be infallible”

    And yet Chris admitted, a few sentences earlier in his post, that the Bible is FULL of contradictions.

    Chris, there’s a reason you can’t see your own contradictory beliefs – you’re brainwashed. You suffer from cognitive dissonance, that is, you hold two contradictory ideas in your mind at the same time.

    “Only God knows why.”

    Do you know what that means, Chris? It means anything you say about your beliefs is suspect, anything you say can be disregarded by thinking people, because you’ve admitted to us that you have a clue about what is true and what isn’t true about your beliefs.

    God’s words are infallible, you tell us in one breath, and in the next you tell us God’s words are contradictory. You’ve told us you don’t know which of God’s words are true, and then you tell us all of them are true.

  326. I’m not brainwashed Dave, I’m just not perfect. No Christian is. I am bound to make mistakes and say things I don’t mean. The post you quoted was me being ignorant and after praying about it, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s not up to me to worry about silly things like biblical contradictions. God gave us his word to study and live by. I truly believe that his word is perfection and I will always believe that. Nathan can point out all those contradictions if he wants. Most of them are taken out of context and the ones that aren’t are put there by God. I don’t believe the Bible contradicts itself, despite what I said before. Also, I’m not sure why you said I said that we can’t know what God means. I don’t recall saying that. We can know what he means by praying and reading his Holy Word. Yes, there are some things we don’t know that God hasn’t revealed, but I’m sure we will find about it in Heaven. It is not up to us to know all things but if God wants us to know, he will tell us. You quoted me saying “Only God knows why”. I said that in reference to the so called Biblical contradictions. I didn’t mean only God knows why about everything. Christians do have knowledge, but it is only what God has given us.

  327. Chris – when you say you're not brain washed, you certainly wouldn't know if you were, so denying it is futile.

    Image I came to you, Chris, with a divinely-inspired book of traffic rules. And I told you that the book was inerrant, the Word of God, a set of traffic rules we had to follow, rules second in important only to the rules we find in the Bible.

    Image then that when I open the book, I see on one page the rule that I have to stop at all red lights. And on another page imagine the book said I should continue through all red lights.

    Image the rule book said on one page to come to a complete stop at all stop signs, and on another to treat all stop signs as yield signs.

    And on one page the rules said to contact the police and trade information with other drivers involved in an accident, while a another page said that every effort should be made to obscure who I am after an accident, and to feel free to punch out other drivers.

    Rational people would say to you, Chris, this isn't a rule book anyone can use, because it contradicts itself over and over and over again.

    "But wait, Dave!" you say to me. "Some contradictions are taken out of CONTEXT, and God made up a bunch of the other contradictions and put them in the rule book on purpose." Of course, you're also going to tell me in the next sentence that "there are no contradictions in the rule book, Dave," directly contradicting yourself.)

    I ask you, Chris, what context would make sense out of God's traffic book rules? And why would God, as you claim, intentionally put contradictions in a rule book that make it impossible to carry out the rules?

    Which is just what you've said is the case with the Bible.

    What "context" could possibly be missing from the simple and direct rules your God lays down? How much "context" do we need, Chris? Do we have read five verses back, and five verses forward, or do we have to go all the way back Gen. 1:1 to understand Rev. 22:21, Chris?

    How can we know which rules to follow if, as YOU say, God gives us contradictory rules, whether in a traffic rule book, or the Bible? The obvious answer to any rational person, of course, is that we can't follow the rules, because there aren't any when they contradict each other.

    Brainwashed people, of course, would come up with nonsensical rationalizations like yours, and like you, they would be unable to see they are brainwashed.

    • Bravo, Dave, this is one of the strengths of Mormonism, that is, that we actually have a logical explanation for just about everything in the Bible. It is only through the lens of Mormon doctrine that apparent contradictions are rectified, that context is clarified, and the truth verified. And since what I just said rhymes you know I'm right.

  328. Wow, Joshua. Talk about irony. I'd refer you to my comments about brainwashing, but it wouldn't do any good, would it? ;-)

    You are in HUGE trouble with Chris and Kent, who think that no other book than the Bible is necessary. Or as Kent wrote:

    "There are just too many contraditions with the LDS Church so I prefer to just go by the Bible as it is consistent and doesn’t change."

    Oops, Chris wrote that the Bible isn't consistent, as per God's wishes. So not only do Kent and Chris think you're wrong, Joshua, they also disagree with each other.

    Should someone reading these comments believe you, Chris or Kent? Or perhaps form their own conclusions based on rational thought?

    • Who can make a claim to be rational? You? How do you know that you aren't brainwashed?

      I know what Chris and Kent think, as well as yourself. We all believe what we want to believe, oftentimes independent of what is logical or rational. Where the Mormon faith differs from all others is that we place a large emphasis on having indisputable proof of our religion. Whereas others merely read the Bible and come to the conclusion it is true, this is not enough for us. We demand communication from God and urge all investigators of our religion to seek the same so that they can know without any doubt that what we teach is true. If you could communicate directly with God would it not be rational and logical to do what he tells you to? You might say that anyone who thinks they have communicated with God must be brainwashed, but those of us who have know differently. Our proof may not convince you, but it is enough for us as well as for anyone who wants to find or for themselves.

  329. Joshua, it's fine to write Mormons "place a large emphasis on having indisputable proof of our religion." It's not so fine to follow it up with "We demand communication from God" because you've started with an assumption there is an invisible, supernatural creature.

    When you want non-Mormons to "demand" communication from God, to to know that the Bible is "true," that is not a measure of truth.

    When you say "Our proof may not convince you" then it's not proof, Joshua. If there's proof, it doesn't have to convince me, or you. But proof will offer a consistent conclusion, whether you or I think it's so or not.

    "Proof" is 1+1=2. Proof is testing whether or not light bends around a planet. Proof can't be just "our proof," it must be proveable to anyone. You've confused proof with faith. That's fine. But your faith isn't based on nor does it always conform with reality.

  330. "This is one of the strengths of Mormonism, that is, that we actually have a logical explanation for just about everything in the Bible."
    Oh, really? You have a logical explanation for Noah's Arch? Please, give me a reasonable and logical explanation how the millions and millions of species spread across several continents were somehow packed into a single boat AND how said species could have ended up where they are now, all apparently starting from a single point (where the arch stopped and the animals got off.) Please give me a logical explanation why all physical evidence points to no such migration happening, but instead indicates that evolution over the course of millions and millions of years perfectly accounts for everything.

    Please give me a logical explanation as to how all the ancient fossils came to be if there was no death before the fall of Adam. Do you have a logical and reasonable explanation about dinosaurs? They couldn't have died out before Adam, as that would indicate that there was death before the fall, where it is clearly stated that there wasn't.

    Please give me a logical explanation as to why we can see light coming from a source that is billions of light-years away if the universe is only about 6000-10,000 years old.

    Please give me a logical explanation why God was totally cool with slavery and the whoring of their daughters.

    "Whereas others merely read the Bible and come to the conclusion it is true, this is not enough for us. We demand communication from God and urge all investigators of our religion to seek the same so that they can know without any doubt that what we teach is true." If this is true, then I have some questions for you to ask Him.
    1. Why is it moral to discriminate against homosexuals, despite all the scientific evidence indicating that they are, in fact, born like that and do not have any more choice to be gay than you have to be straight?
    2. If all things are possible with God, then why won't He heal amputees? Why does he only heal things that could also simply regress without the aid of God? Why aren't the prayers of amputees answered as well?
    3. Why did he create a world that, when seen through the eyes of scientific inquiry, indicates a far different past than how He says it is? Is He trying to trick us? Are we suppose to just shut our eyes and cover our ears and go "Lalalalala, God did it and He'll explain it to us after we die. End of story!"
    4. How does He expect Mormons to have faith if He is in direct contact with them, giving them indisputable proof? Faith is NOT to have a perfect knowledge, but to hope for something that is true. (This part really is bullshit. I was in the church for almost 20 years and I've NEVER met a Mormon who actually claims to have direct communication with God.)

    Indisputable proof. Good grief. I hope you know how uneducated you sound when you say things like that. You really don't know what proof is. Even if your roof on your house blew off and the almighty God came down in a fiery blaze of bold glory and spoke to you directly, this would NOT be proof. It may be pretty convincing to you, but it is NOT proof.
    Having a conviction in your heart is not proof.
    Feeling good after you do something nice for someone is not proof.
    Praying for something to happen, and then it happening is not proof.
    Hearing "still small voices" in your head that validate exactly what you think should happen is not proof.

    Proof is not personal. What is proof for one person must also constitute proof for ANY other person, else it is not a universal truth.

    • I'll respond to both of you in due course, but one question first regarding the nature of proof–do facts exist independent of observation?

  331. This has become a farce. Neither side will win, so I respectably bow out. You can believe what you want to believe now but as the Bible says, when Christ comes again, "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord". I wasn't put on this earth to argue with atheists. I was put here to bring the lost to Christ. I feel sadness in my heart that Dave and Nathan cannot and will not see the truth and see fit to put words in my mouth. I explained my feelings on the situation, the Bible is unchanging, ever true, alive, incapable of error and holy beyond all explanation. It is a mysterious book and only God knows the true meaning of some of the words in it. That said, I take my leave. You all may fight and argue like children. I have more meaningful things to do. God bless.

  332. "This has become a farce."

    Such intemperate language. You're predictably and overly defensive, aren't you?

    Of course you're bowing out, Chris, when the going gets tough and you have to face an unpleasant truth or two. Far from arguing like children, you're in an adult conversation offering you adult ideas outside your closed sphere of thought.

    I wish you well with your "mysterious book" that you don't understand (yet insist everyone else should).

  333. "I’ll respond to both of you in due course, but one question first regarding the nature of proof–do facts exist independent of observation?"

    That's a good question, Chris, and I too need a little time to respond.

    • This is Josh, not Chris, Chris is bowing out, right? I've learned it's easy to get confused on here and forget who one is talking to and who said what.

      While you're thinking about that last question, which I ask not as a gotcha question but rather to make sure we're on the same page and not entering into a fruitless argument about semantics, here are some followup questions; is there a difference between fact and proof, and can there be such a thing as subjective proof, that is, can one person have proof of something and yet not be able to share that proof with anyone else? Or is the ability to share proof part of its very definition?

  334. Hi, Josh – yes, I know it's you still here. ;-)

    Those are all good questions. I don't want to snap off answers. I don't want to write book of answers, either. I'm come back later and try to be concise and hope I can add something to the conversation.

  335. The way you worded the question is confusing. NOTHING exists outside of observation (But that goes into quantum mechanics and is a whole different ballgame). I'm going to assume, for the sake of this argument, that you are talking about universal truths. Yes, there do exist facts outside of any single person's mind. Things like the Earth orbits the sun. Things like E=MC^2. Things like the constant speed of light.

    These things are testable and, more importantly, falsifiable. ALL the evidence that has been collected supports these statements, and they were established by performing tests that they EASILY could have failed. They aren't true because we can't prove them wrong. They are true because we can prove them right.

  336. Also, your follow up questions.

    is there a difference between fact and proof? Of course. Fact is something that HAS proof.

    and can there be such a thing as subjective proof, that is, can one person have proof of something and yet not be able to share that proof with anyone else? No. This would not allow you to establish something as fact.

    Or is the ability to share proof part of its very definition? It's not a matter of sharing. It's about being able to TEST something. It must be repeatable and consistent. Other people don't HAVE to actually do the test for it to be true, but the test must be able to be done by anyone and get the SAME result.

    Good grief… did you not go to school? It's called the scientific method.

  337. Let me reword the first follow up question. To CONSIDER something as fact, it needs proof. There are things that are fact that we don't yet have proof for, but none of those things should be taken into account, as there isn't any evidence or proof for it. They would be nothing but hearsay or guess work.

  338. Chris, god doesn't open your heart he expects you to open your own heart. god will never force a man to believe in him, thats why he allows us to choose to believe or not. All men are free to choose, however we cannot choose the consequences of our actions.

  339. ScottishRM,

    Choosing to believe in something doesn't make sense. Do you choose to believe in gravity? Do you choose to believe in AIDS being a problem in Africa?

    Reality isn't a matter of opinion. Choosing to believe in fairies and unicorns doesn't make them real any more than not choosing to believe in them causes them to not exist. The reality and existence of god is not a matter of opinion.

    p.s. Read the bible. (As mormons are still suppose to believe it) and then tell me that God doesn't care if people don't believe in him. Even Christ himself said (Luke 19:27) "But those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them, bring them hither and slay them before me."

    God is a jealous god and destroys people that don't believe in Him. He's done it several times.

    Of all the things that Christians do, don't cherry pick what you WANT to believe, because the other stuff doesn't make sense. If ANY of it doesn't make sense, than it all doesn't make sense.

  340. I'd invite anyone interested in discussing the matter of "proof" to continue the discussion on a post dedicated to that topic. Evidence, Subjective Proof, and Objective Proof.

  341. My planet is named Valdar and will have tons of neat stuff.

  342. Nathan – you're making it unnecessary for me to answer Joshua's questions.

  343. Haha. Sorry Dave. Feel free to add if I've left something out.

  344. Joshua, you wrote this, in your "Evidence, Subject Proof and Objective Proof" post:

    "This form of communication cannot be forged or falsified, because intrinsic to the form of communication is the ability to detect forgery."

    You've confused communication with knowledge. Even if you substitute "knowledge" or "fact" or "evidence" or "proof" for "communication, you're still missing the mark. If in principle you've got a claim that can't be falsified, then it's not knowledge, in the sense of scientific knowledge.

    You also wrote: "if the things I am claiming to be true are indeed true, you want to participate."

    There are so many claims about which religious beliefs are true, objectively or subjectively, Joshua. (Why pick the one you chose? Are you a convert, or were you raised a Mormon? ) What about other people who make the same claim about their religions? What about all the religions you've never heard about that make claims like yours?

    In fact, if you google Pascal's Wager, you can learn all about why someone might want, or not want, to participate in a claim like yours.

    Then there's this, from your other post: "Subjective proof. Proof that, whether or not it can be given from one person to another or can be witness [sic] by more than one person, has not been."

    You're confusing proof with a fact. I'd explain it to you, but you wouldn't understand or accept it, anyway, because, as you also wrote:

    " I know what I know."

    Of course. Some of what you know, like your literal belief in a god, just happens to be wrong.

    Think back to poor Chris, who kept admitting and denying that his bible had contradictions in it. He became so uncomfortable, he left!

    You're like Chris, except that, unlike Chris, you're willing to stick it out here, untroubled because, unlike Chris, you haven't been able to see how contradictory your statements are, how deep your self-delusional rationalizations.

    • Hi Dave, can you copy and paste your comments on the other post to the other post so I can respond in the appropriate place? Thanks

  345. Nathan – why are you an agnostic (which I read up above, much earlier in the conversation – too much to read everything here)?

  346. I am an agnostic atheist. I am because I'm an educated person who understands what constitutes fact, and I require AT LEAST a convincing philosophical argument to take any claim seriously. I am because I believe that if a God were to have created this universe, and stayed in contact with people from said world, He would not have filled it with so many things that directly contradict what He says is true. I am agnostic because I can't PROVE to you that there is no God. Just like how I can't PROVE to you that werewolves and fairies don't exist. Likewise, I am also agnostic toward werewolves and fairies.

    Truth be told, I don't like the term agnostic, as I find it a little apologetic. Either you currently believe in a God or you don't. I don't. I am atheist. If you do, then you are a theist or deist. Saying you are simply agnostic is a way to say "Well, i don't think I believe in God, but I don't want to rock the boat, so I'll stay quiet and stop doing research to figure out what's going on."

  347. Nathan – are you an agnostic when it comes to whether or not there's a magic teapot hiding behind Jupiter? Are you an agnostic about the existence of unicorns? I think the answer to both questions is no, you're not an agnostic about magic teapots and unicorns. So why be agnostic about a Christian/Mormon/Hindu/Muslim god?

    If you want to say we can't as individual humans have absolute knowledge, fine. I think, though, that's different than what we generally mean by being agnostic.

    I used to be agnostic, myself. As in, "I don't know, maybe there is a god, maybe not." When I thought it through, I decided that since there is zero evidence of a god, I'm an atheist (and not just about Christianity, but of all beliefs of god that I know of). Sure, maybe there is a magic teapot, but I don't believe there is, because I've seen no evidence (that is, there's plenty of evidence that there's no magic, even if there is evidence of real teapots).

  348. I say that I am agnostic, even about the existence of a magic teapot and unicorns. This is not because I think they are likely or even plausible. It is because if i were shown proper evidence in its favor, then I would accept it. I have not concluded for absolute certain that there is NOT a magic teapot, nor unicorns, therefore, I can't say they do not exist, and could not exist.
    However, because I have not been shown any reasonable evidence to support their existence, I assume, by default, that they do not exist. I will even state that they do not exist, as that is what the current evidence is supporting. However, because you can't PROVE a negative, I won't claim to know for certain that they do not exist.

  349. RE: Nathan's comments, Nathan, I think you are taking what is said out of context. I never at any point said God DOESNT care what you choose to believe in, what i said was you are FREE to CHOOSE to beieve or not. Hoever the choices you make have consequences. So if you choose not to believe in him, then you have to face the consequences of that choice.

  350. @ Nathan: "However, because you can’t PROVE a negative, I won’t claim to know for certain that they do not exist."

    Understood. I still think, though, that is more than sufficient to make you an atheist, not an agnostic, about Jesus and magic teacups and unicorns.

  351. I am e lappsed orthodox Jew, and I love reading Mormon theology, because it really sounds similar to Gurdjieffian cosmology. The idea of becoming a G-d over planets is reasonably close to Gurdjieff "world creation" story. One difference is that Gurdjieff taught that a soul is not granted upon birth, but is only a potentially gained faculty that can then develop, and after a long term of suffering and intentional work.

    Then, man can become like G-d, whom we can never truly know – also a Jewish concept, and supported by mystical Chassidic Philosophy that states that a human is born with the "Animal Soul", and only by great efforts, gains a divine soul.

    I love all of this comparative theology, and Mormonism is just fascinating. I'll never be a Mormon, but they seem like great folks. I'll take a mormon any day over a right wings nut evangelical from West Outhouse Arkansas. Nothing against Arkansas.

  352. Joe Smith was clearly lost and has led many from the truth. We real Christians are not hateful by anymeans, and because we share the truth in being obiedient to Christ, doesn't mean we are hateful or judging, it simply means we are dong what we are commanded to do. Jesus Christ died for our sins…..NOT Joeseph Smith or any other false person. With that being said, I pray for every single person reading this that they may come to know the REAL Jesus Christ of the Bible and repent and live for Christ. Then you will experience true joy and meaning of life and understand why we are here. We are here to worship and give glory to God and spread the truth. We are to love our neighbor just as Christ loved the church. I'm a lover of everybody. Hate the sin, NOT the person!! <

  353. It's too bad Mormonism is so abusive toward women and gays in practice because some of the concepts of the religion are pretty interesting. When a religion can come along that respects both Mother Earth and Father Sky, individual struggle and collective success, and internalize the humble realization that science is a better vessel for FINDING truth than religion, more harmony will be promoted. There was once a time when Christianity was that religion. That time is gone.

  354. The one with all the 'contradictions' is hilarious I picked a random claim of his/her. "AC 16:6 The Holy Spirit forbids preaching in Asia.

    AC 19:8-10 Paul preaches in Asia anyway." Use the whole context when Paul was prevented from entering Asia later that night he received a vision of a man in Macedonia that needed the gospel. In other words God had a higher purpose at this time. When Paul is in Asia he was ridiculed and not too successful. Remember the Holy Spirit forbid, that doesn't mean man always listens. Ever heard of SIN?

  355. So here's an interesting thought on eternal progression. I am the Lord your God worship no other Gods before me. So… In your personal universe where you can be worshiped, can you deny others the same privilege? Can you deny them the right to worship the God you now profess to worship? Is that like an inversion of the joke about relationship infidelity being okay in another zip code? You can't worship other gods, but you can become a God with rights to command the same?

    So instead of eating the forbidden fruit to attain Godhood, I can become Mormon instead… I can't do that, the ripple effects of Eves' wrongful desire (lust) is the most unfortunate act in human history.

    God is no more than a man who was a super duper goody two shoes for a long time?

    Seek the Truth and the Holy Spirit will reveal it to you. Desire this above the frail carnal need to reinforce you are right (self-RIGHTeousness) and the Truth will stand by quietly with a grieved heart.

  356. Hi Dave,

    Those with God belief(religionists) and those that have non-God belief (atheists) enlighten us from our shackles with the real truth about our origin. I think they have non-things in common, hey they could be pen pals one day. Neither have available eye witnesses to account for what happened. Neither have the ability to prove their positions. Neither will allow another account sway their position. Neither's non-eye witnesses and non-ability to prove their positions seems able to recruit the other. Neither seems to admit that online posting forums do little to disguise the aforementioned non-enticement factor of operating under the same non-different advantage. Neither seems to notice its moment to shine over the other in debate relies on its salesman not it's non-eyewitnesses and non-provable positions..

  357. Nathans last big tirade really entertained me. Thanks man.

  358. The Mormons are closer to that actual truth than most so called Christians. Especially of the fundamentalist variety. Jesus gave a clue to mankind in John 14:12

    It's time to wake up to the truth that we are all very ancient spiritual beings that are 100% creations of God. That we have many 100's or thousand's of incarnations on this particular planet until we have learned and experienced all that we need in order to "graduate" to the next level just like Jesus did along with many others previously to him over many eons. It's a never ending cycle spiraling upwards until we're ultimately reunited with God, and yes at that time we can create our own universe and start the process over again!

  359. Thanks Mark haha!

  360. Many of the comments on this post have taken an odd turn over the past few days, has this thread of conversation jumped the shark?

  361. Hey now Josh, my post on eternal progression. I'm interested to see if you experience any "cognitive dissonance" when presented with my statements about eternal progression?

  362. "So here’s an interesting thought on eternal progression. I am the Lord your God worship no other Gods before me. So… In your personal universe where you can be worshiped, can you deny others the same privilege? Can you deny them the right to worship the God you now profess to worship? Is that like an inversion of the joke about relationship infidelity being okay in another zip code? You can’t worship other gods, but you can become a God with rights to command the same?"

    If there were two gods to be worshipped, then that would naturally lead to confusion, hence the statement and the commandment to worship no other gods. So yes, theoretically anyone who becomes a god would prohibit their children from worshipping any other god.

  363. Hey I'm just a guy out here in Kirtland, OH right down the road from the temple and I was watching let there be peace on earth on youtube by the mormon tabernacle choir (which by the way was great) and one of the comments was how they had changed a few words in the song due to the fact that the Mormons believe that they will ultimately become Gods and go on to rule their own universe. I had never heard that about the Mormons before. That's how I stumbled across your site. Anyways, that statement resonates with ancient teachings that go much further back in time than Judeo Christianity. Keep an open mind to other sources and once you do, you'll be amazed to discover much of what was written in the new and old testament was based on this ancient wisdom.

  364. Hmmm… No offense but pretty weak argument Josh. I actually expected a lot better. What's so confusing about it? Two is too many Gods to worship? Many religions have been or are polytheistic. This brings up a an important question. What do Mormons consider worship? It doesn't seem to be much more than rooting for your favorite sports team, wearing 49ers socks and Patriots hoodie is just too confusing. One isn't more inherently deserving than the other you just need to root for the team in your region or in this case the particular universe you were born in. I suppose at that point you would cease to worship the current God you "worship" since you are now equal? I empathize with how incredibly, incredibly difficult it is to change opinions on deeply rooted belief systems like Mormonism but wow. Are you familiar with Eziekiel and the King of Tyre?

    Thoughts, input?

    Thoughts, input?

  365. I have been reading a book on "the ten most important things you can say to a mormon". I am confused if Mormonism is a Polytheistic religion or Monotheistic. Mormons don't believe in a triune god. They believe in the father (separate) the son (separate) and the holy ghost(likewise, separate) where as every branch of Christianity (orthodox or protestant) believes that all three are one. The "webster's" definition of christian is someone "who follows the teachings and souly believes in Christ the Father." But if they may be Christian, that alone doesnt mean they are apart of the Holy Catholic (united) Church. They are niether Orthodox or Protestant. But that point is just to lead into my question. I have friends (unmarried minors) who aren't fully aware of every aspect of their religion. They don't know that when they die they will become Gods and have their own Universe. So likewise, WHY IS THIS INFORMATION HIDDEN FROM THE YOUTH? Are they afraid that the youth won't believe in it and will turn away. Please help me to understand. In best regards, Joe (pen name).

    PS. I'm afraid i have corrupted the teachings as for I have told of things (like the univers and becoming a god) to them that their parents have not. And it's not just one. It seems to be all.

    I am part of the Methodist Church and propose that Mormonism isn't necissarily part of the Christian Holy Catholic Church.

  366. Quick Q? How come Mormons are blogging on this site. I had searched "DO MORMONS BELIEVE THEY GET A PLANET AFTER DEATH" on Google. If you souly believe this is true, than how come you are looking on a blog for the answer yourselves. No i am not ignorant, or niave, and I realise that some of you have come just to defend your beliefs. But as a CHRISTIAN (…Bold Print-Double Underlined…) I don't go to random MORMON blogs and defend my beliefs. There are thousands of contradictions in the Book of mormon. And every CONTRADICTION in the bible can be proven to make sense. Ill give an example:

    CONTRADICTIONS IN THE MORMAN BIBLE

    1) It is said that he who murders deserves no forgiveness and shall be cast away (Doctrine and Covenants 42:18) but in (3 Nephi 30:2) it says that for all sins (murder included in scripture) will be forgive if asked and if you repent.

    2) You babtize the dead when it is clearly stated in (Mosiah 3:25 and the Bible) it is said there is no salvation after death.

    3) It says in (Alma 7:10) that Jesus was born in Jerusalem when it is said in the Bible and In historical evidence he was born outside in Bethlehem. TONS MORE!

    CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE

    1) It says that Judas was both Hung and had his Intestines exploded. BUT BUT BUT that alone isn't a contradiction. Could of maybe he hung himself and fell, exploding his intestines? See there is a lupe hole. But in the three listed, in every form of interperation, i couldn't find a way that could make both contradictons true.

    There for I conclude that if you are going to propose you are of the CHRISTIAN faith, have some truth in your scripture that proves us ignorant Imbeciles. This is a huge contraversy. (not really a he said she said but a I think You think).

    Some absurd beliefs had been posted: i think mormons can go to heavan. I think that mormons are the nicest inhabitants of the earth and strive for perfection (in a positive way). And I appreciate that aspect of their religion. Yes they have flukes and i think its OUR duty to show THEM the truth.

    Until than, let's remain…

    In HIM.

    GOD BLESS.

  367. I agree with some things put in Rebecka's comment. Her sarcastic tone is demeaning but the point she was getting accross was pure. Quick Q? more like Quick Q with Long answers given in text : )

    And again with the Judas:

    It is true that there can be plural perspectives of two different stories.

    OK if 4 people witness a car accident, most likely all 4 stories will be a little different.

    The driver may have seen something that the person behind him might not have. As well as a walker down the street.

    Life is just a big car accident. We shouldn't get mad until after we have gone to see if the other person is okay.

    "Don't point out the speck in someone else's eye without taking out the log in your own". Same concept. Just an analogy!!!

    • Now Joe/Rebecka, if there's one thing we don't tolerate here, it's people who pretend to be more than one person. Whenever someone comments I can see their ip address, so it's pretty easy for me to tell if someone is posting comments under multiple names. Banned.

  368. @James – "Hmmm… No offense but pretty weak argument Josh. I actually expected a lot better. What’s so confusing about it? Two is too many Gods to worship? Many religions have been or are polytheistic."

    It's pretty confusing with just one. Just look at how many religions and churches we have that believe in one God, and yet disagree with each other on all sorts of things. Then inject one more god into that. If you don't think it would cause confusion we can agree to disagree.

    But actually, I don't think confusion is the main reason anyway, that just popped into my mind. I would suppose there is something quite a bit more fundamental and natural than that, but I don't know what it is. It might be as simple as the question "Why don't kids have two dads?" Well, because they have one, that's just the way things work (referring to a dad in a purely biological sense).

    "What do Mormons consider worship?"

    I think the best synonym is imitation.

    "I suppose at that point you would cease to worship the current God you “worship” since you are now equal?"

    If worship is imitation, then the worship would never end.

    "Are you familiar with Eziekiel and the King of Tyre?"

    Somewhat. If you want to discuss go ahead and make your point and I'll respond.

    @Joe – "I am confused if Mormonism is a Polytheistic religion or Monotheistic."

    We Mormons consider ourselves to be monotheistic, because we only worship one god, which is God. We believe in the existence of other gods, but do not worship them.

    "WHY IS THIS INFORMATION HIDDEN FROM THE YOUTH?"

    I'm a little confused, you have young friends who are Mormon who aren't fully aware of every aspect of their religion…or friends of other faiths? I assume you mean Mormons. The reason they're not fully aware of every aspect of their religion is because even if one spends their entire life studying the LDS religion they'll still be learning when they're 100 years old. There simply isn't enough time to learn everything. That's one reason.

    Another is because there are certain things that are more important to know than other things. One has to prioritize what to teach, what to learn, what to focus on.

    Another is because some parents don't teach very well, some teachers don't teach very well, and some kids don't learn very well.

    But nothing is hidden, per se, at least nothing you would be referring to, since if it were really hidden you wouldn't know to even reference it. There are things that are promoted, and other things that aren't, but just because something isn't focused on, that doesn't mean that it's being hidden.

    "I am part of the Methodist Church and propose that Mormonism isn’t necissarily part of the Christian Holy Catholic Church."

    I would say the Mormon Church is most certainly not part of the Catholic Church, although I would assume no protestant considers their church to be part of the Catholic Church either…

  369. I'll write a longer response, but the fact that you have no concrete response to my question about something that important is a bit scary.

  370. "I’ll write a longer response, but the fact that you have no concrete response to my question about something that important is a bit scary."

    What's scary about it? What difference does it make whether we know the answer during this life or in the next life? Like many doctrines of the gospel that remain unknown yet are "important", if we were to know them they wouldn't change our actions. They wouldn't make us more caring, more loving, more apt to render service to those in need, etc., so who cares if we know the answers or not? If we don't get the answers here, we'll get them in the next life.

  371. I'll tell you why it's scary, well, scary is the wrong word. It's unfortunate. But first, let me

    address you last post before this.

    Why would you assume worshipping two gods would be like having two dads? We have two parents male

    and female don't we? Why assume it would consist of worshipping two male Gods. If that's the analogy you choose aren't there female Mormons who will be gods we can choose from? Secondly, since gods are created things that got their start from another god an taught to make universes and a result, anything you do has it's roots in your original god. Therefore, just as a grandchild owes the grandfather for making the father, so it should be right that your god is worshipped by them as well. Not completely obscured from knowledge and commanded to pretend he/she god isnt to be worshipped or known.

    More coming soon…

    • "Why would you assume worshipping two gods would be like having two dads?"

      Because God is not just a being that gets worshipped, he is the literal father of our spirits. There can only be one father of our spirits, just as there can only be one father of our physical bodies. What would be the purpose in worshipping a god that wasn't the father of our spirits?

      "Secondly, since gods are created things that got their start from another god an taught to make universes and a result, anything you do has it’s roots in your original god. Therefore, just as a grandchild owes the grandfather for making the father, so it should be right that your god is worshipped by them as well. Not completely obscured from knowledge and commanded to pretend he/she god isnt to be worshipped or known."

      There's a lot that won't be known in this life, but this life is a tiny blip in the eternal scheme of things. I suspect the smartest one of any of us doesn't know .0001% of what there is to be known. From an eternal perspective, we're all kind of stupid. Or a kinder way to say it is that we're all children and know about as much about God and his plans as an infant knows about this world while sitting on his mother's lap.

      But to your statement, what would be the point in worshipping a "grandfather" god? All gods are the same, in the sense that they are all omnipotent and omniscient. If there is no differentiation between gods other than that one is the father of your spirit and another isn't, then what sense would it make to worship the god that isn't the father of your spirit? Or from the other side of things, each god has their domain, which includes their children. They are responsible for and have power over their children. Other gods don't. To worship a god other than the god that is your father would be like someone on this earth demanding an inheritance from someone they're not related to and don't even know.

  372. Again, your points break down under scrutiny. Come now man tell me is this actual Mormon doctrine you are speaking stuff you just made up off the cuff like the confusion thing?

    Anyway to address why your points first off don't address my previous comments adequately.

    I find it hard to believe that the Mormon church, who is so HUGE on family ancestry, and have such revered treatment for the decendants of family lines like Smith and Young don't consider grandparents of value (remember drawing parallels to family this was your own analogy). You don't think that the god who created you has played any part on the worlds you create and deserves no credit or recognition? That is liken to saying your Grandfather have absolutely had no part to play in your eventual birth. Not only should this grandfather receive no honor from you or your decendants, he should not be loved and furthermore may it never be known that he existed. It's Ok because grandpa didn't directly "father your spirit". He just fathered the spirit of your "father". No big deal, your dad would have magically appeared anyway, your grandpa should be thankful he was even allowed to father your father, quickly now, put him away in the galactic senior home and keep real quiet about it.

  373. Who says the "grandfather" god isn't of any importance? You're jumping to conclusions based on your misunderstandings of what I've said. All I've said is that there are things of greater importance and things of lesser importance, and that there are many important things that we won't know in this life because we won't know most of what there is to know. The things that are important to know in this life are the things that make a difference in this life, and I can't see how knowing a "grandfather" god would change anything. Would he have any knowledge to impart that our father god doesn't have? No, because our father god is omniscient. Can he do anything for us that our father god can't? No, because our father god is omnipotent. Does having definitive knowledge of a grandfather god change our actions in any way in this life? Not that I can see. So why focus on it when there are all sorts of things we can learn that do make a difference in this life, and more of those things than we have time to learn in this life?

  374. The reason I find the lack of thought you've put into this subject I brought up is because it honestly exposes a huge hole in the whole doctrine. If you haven't considered it likely means you just drank the koop-aid on it and choose to accept it. But isn't that a bit hypocritical? Isn't this commet page supposed to "unimpregnably" pronounce the logic of the Mormon doctrine of eternal progression? But now that foundational problems have been pointed to, you resort to tactics like "well we will know one day, we really don't know anything anyway wait till you die" That's a cop out, and if you are going to cop out then what are you doing with a WEBSITE with a disclaimer that touts how I'm supposed to learn about mormonism from you? Sure there are plenty of things we won't know till we die, but this gaping hole of understanding should have been covered by that old eyptian text somewhere! This isn't a question like "can the Mormon doctrine prove how tall I will be when I'm a god". That's non essential information unlike what we are discussing.

  375. Oh it's of great importance. God said, I am the Lord your God. Worship no other God before me. It seems vital we steer clear of these other created beings that behaved quite well for some time.

  376. "Isn’t this commet page supposed to “unimpregnably” pronounce the logic of the Mormon doctrine of eternal progression?"

    No, this post is here to merely explain what Mormons believe, not pronounce logic or prove anything.

    "But now that foundational problems have been pointed to…"

    Huge hole? Foundational problem? Gaping hole? I'm not sure we're having a rational discussion here. That's a pretty wild claim to throw out. I've already told you, using logic, why there's no reason for the Church to spend time focusing on "grandfather gods". I didn't give you a cop out, I responded directly to your point, which you appear to be ignoring. If you disagree with me, then the rational thing to do is to refute my points. Show me why having a relationship with a grandfather god would make a difference in this life. Show me why this knowledge is essential in this life and should be a primary focus of the Church.

    "Oh it’s of great importance. God said, I am the Lord your God. Worship no other God before me."

    And this is not a response. It's important? Explain why. Don't just repeat "I am the Lord your God. Worship no other God before me" because that doesn't explain anything. I agree with that. You say I need to explain why, if there are other gods, we can't worship them. I don't know. I've got some ideas, but they're speculation. What I do know is that it doesn't matter in this life, and I've given my explanation for why it doesn't matter. It's up to you to prove that if there are other gods, that it matters to know why we shouldn't worship them just as well as we worship God rather than it being enough just to know that we shouldn't.

    "It seems vital we steer clear of these other created beings that behaved quite well for some time."

    Maybe you've got a good answer here, but I can't even understand what you're saying. Is English your first language? I'm not making fun of you, I'm honestly asking. I don't want to be critical of how you say things if you're doing the best you can and English just isn't how you normally communicate.

  377. I realized I am getting off topic here but this thread seems to be what most people who come to this site look at most.

    I am posting a link to a presentation by a Mormon who explains why some people leave the Mormon Church and he documents some of the contradictions that people who leave use as reasons for leaving the church.

    The video is not a so called 'anti Mormon' video but one that shows how Mormons can reach out to people who have left.

    I find it interesting that the day before he was killed that Joseph Smith drank wine and don’t Mormons have to be temple worthy to worship in the temple and one of the things that make them temple worthy is that they can’t drink alcohollic beverages?

    So wouldn’t that make Smith not be able to enter the Celestial Kingdom when he passed from this earth if he wasn’t temple worthy at the time of his death?

    So if not, how can we have to have his permission to enter the mansions where God is if he might not be there himself?

    Also, if he did translate at least part of the Book of Mormon with some seers stone, without the gold plates, the same kind of stone he used earlier in his life to try to find treasures, how can we trust that it actually came from God and not from satan himself? After all, one of the witnesses of Smith translating it reportedly said he used a stone and that he didn’t see the plates.

    Again, this video is not by a non Mormon but by a Mormon who is trying to explain why some people leave the Mormom Church.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embed

    There are just too many things that have be explained to reconcile that what the Mormon Church teaches is true and it does, even though the video does attempt to try to show that people shouldn't leave the church, give compelling reasons for people to leave as when people dug deeper into them is what caused people to decide to leave.

    • Hi Kent, yes, your questions are a bit off topic, but I'm here to help. Your question about Joseph Smith drinking wine the day he died is answered here.

      "Also, if he did translate at least part of the Book of Mormon with some seers stone, without the gold plates, the same kind of stone he used earlier in his life to try to find treasures, how can we trust that it actually came from God and not from satan himself? After all, one of the witnesses of Smith translating it reportedly said he used a stone and that he didn’t see the plates."

      This one's easy. One knows whether the Book of Mormon is true or not based on God telling him. How it was translated doesn't matter.

      Regarding the video, it's by John Dehlin who I can't characterize as a fully-active Mormon. I've watched that entire presentation before, and while it's all "true", there's something about it that doesn't come across quite right to me. Comments from John himself seem to indicate that he struggles with his faith in the LDS Church, and therefore I wouldn't consider him to be a completely trustworthy representative of it even if his intentions are sincere.

      "There are just too many things that have be explained to reconcile that what the Mormon Church teaches is true and it does…"

      A lot of explanation is needed because there are so many misconceptions in the world about God and Christ. The more misinformation there is in the world, the more explanation is needed to get people to believe in the truth.

  378. Kent, do you love god? Yes or no.

  379. Cause I love him. And even though you haven't replied yet I know what your answer will be. You will say, Yes. I love him. And that is what makes us the same. We love God, and God loves us. Period. We are both children of God. The only difference, is that we have more information about God than you. We have the book of Mormon. And there's nothing wrong with that.

    And Kent, just so you know, I love you too.

  380. Thank god I'm an atheist. You gods are all nuts.

  381. Doug said, "Thank god I’m an atheist. You gods are all nuts."

    Doug, I guess I am not nuts as I am not a god and I never will be a god!

    Landon, yes I do love God who was never a man first but God always and I love Jesus who is God and always has been God who was never a created being, the spirit brother of us and Satan, whose salvation plan was chosen over Satan's plan who chose good instead of the evil His brother Satan chose.

    So the God of the Bible is the God who I love who is not the god of the LDS Church and ironically the LDS god doesn't seem to be the God described in the Book of Mormon either, a book that contains falsehoods but has some truth in it.

  382. Blah blah blah blah. How poorly people treat one another in the name of religion. Religion is not faith, it is the destroyer of it. Be kind and treat people with love and respect, period. God is the judge, not any one of us. Most all churches in all religions have lost their way, with efforts toward filling their pockets rather than following simple basic faith. Love, respect and kindness. Pretty simple really. The rest is pretty much a waste of time. I say start with working on those three things first, and once we have mastered them, we won't see blogs like this anymore.

  383. I'm Gina be brief here, as I cannot believe this post is soooo long, wow peoples, there is enough energy here to stop all the wars on earth & bring forth righteousness from & to all. I'm just gona say my opinion, religion is craziness, and god is wonderful. I'm so sick of everyone thinking their god us better than anothers god, & I'm right & your wrong. Let's face it more wars have been fought over religion than anyother topic on this planet. I have been to nearly all churches, & man is free to worship as he pleases, but also the Mormons are the most absolute KROOKS of ALL. I'm not going to sit here & argue, but of all churches and I'm a white person, the Mormons have changed the words of god more than any religion put together. Blacks were angels turned bad, and hinse why their skin is black, until the late 1950's black people could only go to heaven as slaves, now why do we need slaves in heaven, ology all thevplanets these greedy folks will have, my bad, but guess what god allowed them to change that too! Then until June of 1978 blacks were not allowed to be in the church what so ever, but hey god changed that too. I'm literally over all this fighting on who's church or god is right, it's crazy, we need to get back to our roots, which we had no religions, but we had one another, and believed in the land the gods of the lands and the stars, the planets, etc.. These were all our gods, white man has enslaved enough minds for to long, again I'm white, & I'm not proud of it. We have hated to much to long. You Mormons, believe in what you want, " whatever gets you through the night" we all are here together, sharing one world, one love, ONE!! I'm not going to down anyone on here, as much as I might want to but it's not for me to do or make decissions on, I'm human, & believe in a higher power, just not your everyday major religions, you all have so much hate, this world cannot take to much more of this or us humans, the times are here no matter who you are, be good, know your loved, have faith & try to make the world a better place for us all. I wish you all peace and love, can we ever learn to live as one, & respect the fact we are all different, yet one? I say blessings to you all, one love!!

  384. Oh my GOD! Grow up all of you. The Easter bunny is not real. My god is the right one not yours and your all going to hell. That's right everyone that posted is going to hell cause they don,t be leave in MY GOD. Here,s a hint, do the right thing, be nice to one another, if you do this your heaven will be here on earth,now. Not when your dead. Cause when your dead that's it, nothing else. No one can tell me 100 percent otherwise. If you could then your dead. So have a good life while your still here.

  385. What a load of complete clap trap! How can you all be so stupid? Religion, in any form, whether Catholic, Muslim, Mormon, you name it, is all about control. Its always been about control. All about a few controlling the rest by fear and intimidation and you are all suckered in. I live a good and honest life. I dont steal, commit adultary, kill, covert , lie. I help my neighbours, I contribute to charities. I think I am a good person but I dont need to go to Church and bow down in front of some altar to some complete ficticious being called God.

  386. @Annie the book of Ephesians 2:9 says, it not by works that so that no one can boast. Meaning, our works are not enough to save us, which is why God sent His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish. Please understand we were all born into a world of sin and shaped in iniquity, Psalms 51:5. and there is only one God eternal. The book of Ecclesiastes also says that there is nothing new under the sun. You will find that in chapter 1:9. All of these different cults and religions existed in the old testament as well. It is important to understand that as Christians, as born-again believers we are to declare the Word of the Lord. We cannot serve two masters, we will love one and hate the other…Matt 6:24. God did not create hell for His creation, meaning us the human race. It was created for satan and his demons. However, we all have free will, but you best believe that if anyone of us walk contrary to the Word of God, hell will be the final resting stop for eternity. So, when a believer in Christ says you are going to hell, that is not being judgmental, they are merely stating the facts, which are laid out in the Holy Bible. All of these other books, have taken some piece or many pieces from the Word of God, however, the Bible takes nothing from nowhere. The Bible is the unadulterated Word of God, yes written by man, by inspired by Holy Spirit.As believers if we do not tell people that they are lost and walking in err, we are held accountable for that soul that is lost. God told Ezekiel, "When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood." Eze 33:8. For example, if a sight impaired individual were standing with you at a crosswalk, and was about to step out into traffic and get hit by a bus and die, would you not warn them? I would hope so. This same principle is true for believers in Christ Jesus. If our righteousness was good enough Jesus would not have had to come and be crucified.

  387. You religious people are ALL effing whacko's! My gosh, do you even read your own arguments back and forth? I've never, in my life, read so many pathetically hilarious irony!

    Christians bashing Mormons, Mormons bashing Christians… both bashing every other religion.

    By your OWN book, the Bible, you're ALL going to hell. Didn't you read the part where it says, "Judge not, lest ye be judged" ?? Orrrrr… are you just too brainwashed and/or stupid to comprehend what the=at means?

    YOU ALL BELIEVE IN THE SAME GUYS, YOU'RE JUST ARGUING ABOUT THE MEANS TO ATTAIN WHAT YOU WANT IN AN AFTER-LIFE!

    IT'S PURE IDIOCY, AT IT'S FINEST!

    You can't have everything here because you've been enslaved by religion, which was created to keep people working their butts off, thinking they'll get something that they're never going to get!

    None of you care to wake the heck up and realize that the idea of one God wasn't even invented until 20,000 years after mankind was on this planet, and there were people (the Sumerians) here who knew more about the cosmos than we even today, we're still finding things that they knew about without technology, that we need MASSIVE technology to see.

    Yet white man, under the guise of Christianity once it was legalized, raped, pillaged, slaughtered and destroyed every shamanic culture on the planet, and rewrote their history in Christian terms.

    YOU'RE ALL BRAINWASHED! My god, do a little research outside of that mind-shackling book!

  388. Back to commenting on the original post. I think it clearly states that Mormons believe they can attain Godhood, create there own worlds, and populate them with their own children, i.e. Spirit Children. Has anyone here ever read 2001, A Space Odyssey? That is the exact same thing that is implied in the book…David Bowman becomes a Star Child and is like God. Is 2001 required reading for Mormons? Just wondering.

    Chas

  389. We are not to add to the word of God so The Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, etc are not scripture but are from man. Mormons may say that the passages below mean that we are not to add to the proverbs but it doesn't say just the proverbs but that we are not to add to God's words.

    Proverbs 30:5-6

    5 Every word of God is pure;

    He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.

    6 Do not add to His words,

    Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

  390. Annie said, "What a load of complete clap trap! How can you all be so stupid? Religion, in any form, whether Catholic, Muslim, Mormon, you name it, is all about control. Its always been about control. All about a few controlling the rest by fear and intimidation and you are all suckered in. I live a good and honest life. I dont steal, commit adultary, kill, covert , lie. I help my neighbours, I contribute to charities. I think I am a good person but I dont need to go to Church and bow down in front of some altar to some complete ficticious being called God."

    Can you honestly say that you have never ever stole anything in your entire life even something small and seemingly unimportant in the scheme of things, that you have never in your entire life felt bad thoughts toward another person because they had something and you didn't have it, that you have even told a little seemingly harmless white lie, or have you ever been angry with someone without cause ever even once?

    Because the Bible says that if you are guilty of not keeping even one of God's laws (comnmandments) you are guilty of breaking all of them so if you can't admit to yourself and to God that you have ever stolen, told a lie about someone, that you have ever lied, then you are still, in God's eyes, a thief, a liar, etc.

    The Bible says, that even anyone being angry at someone without a cause is in being in danger of being judged as a murderer.

    Matthew 5:21-22

    21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment"

    But the good news, the gospel, is that if we admit to ourselves and confess to God that we are sinners who cannot ever save ourselves, that we have broken even one of His commandments (most of us have broken more than one), if we believe in our hearts that Jesus died for our sins and rose again from the dead, and if we confess this with our mouths, that we will be saved.

    To the Mormons here, when we talk about being saved we mean having eternal life forever in the mansions where God is not just that we live in the afterlife with a chance of getting there sometime in the future but minus being exalted as being a god ourselves.

  391. Is it not funny how hateful the so-called religious people are on here? What good is your so-called religion if it breeds less than thoughtful life forms, such as most of yourselves? I find the human race is despicable and it is bred on this ignorant thing called religion in this current day and age. Wake up sheeples and embrace what is known as true reality. You people are disgusting I have to go take a bath.

  392. J, it is not being hateful to tell people what the Bible says because if sinners really do go to hell if they don't repent and turn from their sins and admit to God and themselves that they are sinners who cannot ever save themselves who need a savior, it is actually loving to tell them so.

    All I am doing is sharing information but it is up to other people to decide for themselves if they believe it or not. Maybe you have decided you don't believe it but there are others out there who haven't decided for themselves.

    But anyway, I will ask you a similar question to what I asked Annie, have you ever, for example, gotten angry with someone who cut you off while you were driving? But if you don't know for sure that they did it on purpose, which most of the time is the case that they didn't do it on purpose, then you are being angry with someone without a cause and Jesus Christ Himself said you would be in danger of the judgement.

    Another example is have you ever lusted after someone if you have, then you are guilty of committing adultery. Jesus Christ Himself said this also, not me.

    Matthew 5:21-22

    21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment”

    Matthew 5:27-28

    27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

    I will post the solution to our sinfullness in my next post.

  393. It sounds like a dilemma that we are all sinners who have broken God's laws (commandments) so what is the solution?

    The solution is to, as I pointed out in another post, is to repent and admit to God and ourselves that we need a savior and believe in Jesus Christ and what He alone did to save us sinners, who can never ever save ourselves.

    Below is the gospel I have been given and is the gospel I pass on to other people.

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    Corinthians 15:1-4

    Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

    Mormons, realize, again, that the definition of saved is belief in Jesus Christ alone, not following laws and ordinances which you would have to do 100% your whole lives if it is about having to do so, and it is this faith alone that He died and rose again on third day that guarentees us eternal life with God in His mansions but minus being exalted as gods ourselves. Notice the gospel that Paul (and others) was given doesn't say following laws and ordinances.

  394. Mormons, the reason I believe that 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 10 are not just the first principles of the gospel but are the whole gospel is because it says it is the gospel and not the first principles of the gospel.

    To any people who come here and think we, non Mormons believers and Mormons also are a bunch of nuts for even believing there is a god, even if our respective beliefs are different, then why to do come to sites like this an even spend any time discussing anything here if you think our religious beliefs are all a bunch of fairy tales anyway and why are you so offended that any of us believe there is a god?

  395. The fact that someone can think we will spend our whole lives worshiping god, just to die and worship him in Heaven is ridiculous. God isn't egotistical. He loves us. And our whole purpose here isn't to worship Heavenly Father, but come to know him and have faith in what his purpose is with our lives. We must love him for what he has given us and be grateful for our lives. It is also, to know our brother, Jesus, and live a life as close to him as possible. We can be happy in our lives, currently, as we live the teachings of Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father and live through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. When we die, it isn't us being greedy, but only Our Heavenly Father's want for us to continue progressing in our knowledge that we can become like him. We aren't thinking, "Boy I can't wait to own my own Universe," that kind of thought is someone who is not living the life of Jesus. People don't understand… Mormons don't know that they are going to the celestial kingdom or not. It doesn't work that way. It's more like, I hope to live a life worthy so that I can be in the celestial kingdom with my eternal family. You can ask any LDS person what their thoughts about them going to the celestial kingdom are, if they don't say something similar to this thought, than they aren't living a life that our Gospel encourages. People don't understand, we aren't saying we ARE Jesus or we WILL become God… We live LIKE Jesus and we want to be worthy to be exalted LIKE God. "Are" and "Like"-These two concepts are VERY different.

    There is too much static in this world for those who have harden hearts to think logically. God does have a body. God is a physically being. No… that thought doesn't come from the Book of Mormon, it does come from the Bible. Genesis 1:27:26- "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…" Man in his image. So if God is a God who has no physical body, then why aren't we all Gods now? Why do we have a physical body if God doesn't have one? He made us in his image, didn't he? If you think he is just this glowing white bearded man… then why aren't we all glowing white bearded men? It is because he has a physically body people. The thought is, if he is a physical being… then he must reside in a physical place, which is where that whole "He has his own planet" idea comes from. Just think about it. Try not to judge, as I know you are probably doing anyways, but the idea is true and logical. Since God is a physical being, he has to reside in a physical place.

    Also, I saw a response somewhere in this that said along the lines that what we believe isn't in "God's Bible" – There is no logic behind that comment. Man wrote "God's Bible" just as the Book of Mormon was written; translated through a man. So what you call "God's Bible" is actually written by men. Lots of them. Similar to the Book of Mormon, which was translated by a man. So, if you are saying that the Book of Mormon is not valid because it was written by a man… Think about it.

    I truly think our religion is just one where people don't know what they are talking about and just want to hate us because they don't understand… I really appreciate what you are trying to do here Josh. It's just that people who have hate in their hearts and have nothing to put into the conversation except they don't believe in god… or that they know Mormons are going to hell, will never change. It seems like trying to provide truth will help, but the problem with that is that you are only bringing more anger into your life with this. Anytime there is truth to be told, Satan's interventions will find it. Please, just keep in mind that by trying to spread truth, often it just creates hate and animosity.

  396. Mrs.Lower, you make some strong and valid points. I think in all honesty my hostility and the hostility of other non-believers is the result of evangelists getting into politics and forcing us to live by their moral code regardless of what our hearts and spirits lead us in our own personal lives. It is infuriating and frightening at the same time to imagine someone as religious as Bush or Palin or Santorum in the nation's highest office legislating with devout belief in the literal word of the Bible. I have read the Holy Bible cover to cover, and wow that's crazy if you believe it word for word. I only got about half way through the first part of the BOM, and it seemed much more sane, actually, if not a bit of a boring read. That is probably why Mitt will get the candidacy. Zealots don't need power, and from what I've see , Mormons are moderate compared to Southern Baptist evangelists.

  397. Mrs. Lower, one of the reasons I believe Mormons are heading down the wrong path to outer darkness is because of contradicting teaching, in, for example, the Book of Mormon that does not teach things like God was a man first before He became God, that we can ourselves can become gods, that Adam was Jesus’ father and is our Father in heaven, and that interracial couples should be killed on the spot.

    Directly below is Brigham Young saying the same character (Adam) that was in the Garden of Eden begot Jesus and that he (Adam) is our father in heaven.

    Brigham Young, 'Journal of Discourses', Vol. 1, p. 51, April 9, 1852

    “Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. . . Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost."”

    Directly below is Brigham Young saying that race mixers (interracial couples) should be executed on the spot, that it is God’s law, and that this will always be so.

    Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 10:111 (8 March 1863)

    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.”

    Brigham Young was supposed to be a prophet of God who was speaking for God but if this is the case, then why doesn’t the Mormon Church now teach that Adam is our father in heaven or that race mixers should be put to death on the spot? Did God suddenly change His mind on such important issues?

    Mormons it just more consistent top just go by the Bible and its teachings as they never change.

    I believe that the more you question what your church teaches and the more you learn about your church history and its prior teachings, the more likely you will be to leave the Mormon faith.

  398. Mormons, if it is disturbing that one of your revered leaders (Brigham Young) could say such an offensive thing such as race mixers should be put to death on the spot and that this will always be so consider that you don't have to have faith in anything he or any of your leaders say but you can have faith in the blood of Jesus which is what really saves us where saved equals eternal life but minus ever becoming a god ourselves.

    I

    I believe that the Mormon temple and its ordianances as well as all of laws and ordianances of your church are all extra stuff added on to the gospel which is all about what Jesus did and not at all about what we do.

    hope and pray that everyone reads the following Bible passages and takes them to heart.

    Directly below is the gospel I have been given that I pass on to other people. It doesn’t say it is just the first principles of the gospel but it says it is the gospel.

    Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.

    The following passages are the works that you are to do the works of God, that you believe in Him (Jesus) in whom He (Heavenly Father) sent.

    John 6:28-29

    28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    Directly below is what you need to do to be saved, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved (have eternal life).

    Acts 16:30-34

    30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

    31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

    Directly below is how to believe so that you can be saved and have eternal life, that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved (have eternal life), that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved (have eternal life).

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    Directly below shows that being saved is eternal life. Saved=eternal life=everlasting life

    John 3:14-16

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

  399. As Mormons believe in the possibility of becoming a god, as we are heirs of God, what makes a Mormon believe there is only one God? If all humans have the capability to become a God one could argue Mormonism is Polytheistic and therefore non-Christian.

  400. Here is another example of the Bible saying believing in Jesus gives us eternal life, along with the passages from John 3. So saved does equal eternal life which does equal everlasting life. Eternal life does not require being temple worthy, following laws and ordianances, being worthy ourselves as we can be worthy because Jesus is worthy if we trust completely and believe in what He did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day to save us, sinners who can never save ourselves, and if we don't trust in anything we do.

    John 5:10-13

    10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 AND THIS IS THE TESTIMONY: THAT GOD HAS GIVEN US ETERNAL LIFE, AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 THESE THINGS I HAVE WRITTEN TO YOU WHO BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD, THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

    John 3:14-16

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

  401. So Adam and Eve wanted to be like God and ate the forbidden fruit and ended up banished from the Garden of Eden (paradise) causing all mankind to follow to sin and experience death. Satan wanted to be like God and have all God's power and look how he ended up. Yeah…to say we are "Gods" or will be a part of God when we die is not the direction the God of the Bible wants us to go. We are His creation, not Him. Something to think about…

  402. Rock said, "So Adam and Eve wanted to be like God and ate the forbidden fruit and ended up banished from the Garden of Eden (paradise) causing all mankind to follow to sin and experience death. Satan wanted to be like God and have all God’s power and look how he ended up. Yeah…to say we are “Gods” or will be a part of God when we die is not the direction the God of the Bible wants us to go. We are His creation, not Him. Something to think about…"

    But Mormons believe that the fall was a good thing because if the fall hadn't happened, they wouldn't have known how to procreate and have children unless they had the knowledge how to do so.

    So in a sense they disobeyed the smaller command, to not eat of the fruit, to obey the larger command to be fruitful and mulitply as to Mormons, it seems, the most important thing they do is to provide bodies for the spirit children to go into.

    Of course I believe that the fall wasn't a good thing as sin and death came into the world and all of the misery that followed and I believe that Adam and Eve did know how to procreate and they would have had children and all of their children, their children's children, on down the line would have lived in paradise forever.

    I also believe that if people think they can become gods themselves, then they haven't submitted to God's righteousness and they are trying to establish their own righteousness and they haven't truly repented and aknowledged to God and themselves that He is God and they are not God and never will be.

    In addition, there are no works that people can do to progress towards godhood as Christ is the end of the law (works) for righteousness to everyone who believes and not just Israel but everyone, Jew and gentile alike.

    Romans 10:1-4

    1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    One more thing, God was never a man first, as Mormons teach, who somehow progressed to be God as He has always been God as if He has always been God, then it wouldn't follow that they too could become gods themselves.

    Psalm 90:2

    2 Before the mountains were brought forth,

    Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,

    Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

    Isaiah 40:28

    28 Have you not known?

    Have you not heard?

    The everlasting God, the Lord,

    The Creator of the ends of the earth,

    Neither faints nor is weary.

    His understanding is unsearchable.

    I find it ironic that even their Book of Mormon does not teach that God was a man first who became God, that idea came later in their other scriptures which contradicts the supposed most correct book on earth, and it teaches that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, that God created the heavens and the earth. So 1. God has always been God, he doesn't change and 2. There were no planets for God to have been a man on first as there were no heavens for planets yet to exist in until God created the heavens.

    Besides, how can a man create the heavens and he earth? He can't, so God was never a man first. Man is a creation of God but not the creator.

    Mormon 9:9-11

    9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

    10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles.

    11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.

  403. so basically … your aiming to overthrow God :S

  404. Kent: BUT we already are a part of God – we were made in his image

  405. jfsdkni said, "so basically … your aiming to overthrow God :S" I have no idea what you mean by this as saying that it was wrong for Adam and Eve to disobey God by eating of the forbidden fruit is not overthrowing God as it was God's plan for them to obey God's commands to both not eat of the fruit but also to be fruitful and multiply as it is never God's plan for anyone to disobey Him.

    In fact, I believe anyone who thinks they can be a god is actually trying to overthrow God as He is God and none of us will ever be!

    jfsdkni also said, "Kent: BUT we already are a part of God – we were made in his image"

    Yes, but we are His creation who can reflect His image but are not the image ourselves. Again, He is God, the creator, and we will never will the creator but will always be the creation. Hence we can never be God.

    An analogy is that the sun emits light but the moon, which also shines, reflects the light of the sun but isn't the light itself. Just as we can be the reflection of God's light but are not the light ourselves, again, we will never be God ourselves.

    God was never a man first and, at least on this point, the Book of Mormon agrees with the Bible that God doesn't change, that He has always been God, that He created the heavens and the earth, so there were no heavens with planets for God to be a man first before He created them.

    I find it ironic that Mormons don't follow the so called most correct book on earth, the BOM, which doesn't teach that God was ever a man first.

    Mormons, don't you see a contradiction that if the Bible, and even the Book of Mormon, teach one thing, that God has always been God, but other later Mormon teachings teach that He was a man first?

    I know your church teaches that contention is of the devil but questioning contraditions is not contention but is following what the Bible says to test all things.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21

    21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

    So it follows that if we hold fast to what is good, then we reject what is false, not good.

    Genesis 1 and, ironcially, Mormon 9, show that God created the heavens and earth so they didn't exist before the beginning. So where would God have been a man first if there were no heavens for planets to be in?

    Genesis 1:1

    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    Mormon 9:9-11

    9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

    10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles.

    11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.

    Again, God is the everlasting God who has always been God who was never a man:

    Psalm 90:2

    2 Before the mountains were brought forth,

    Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,

    Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

    Isaiah 40:28

    28 Have you not known?

    Have you not heard?

    The everlasting God, the Lord,

    The Creator of the ends of the earth,

    Neither faints nor is weary.

    His understanding is unsearchable.

  406. Mormanism…… Mor Man ism…More copycat cult material made up by cult leader and liar Jospeh Smith, the word says it all…Man ism..Man's spin on the bible the name Morman says it all, they can have as many wives as they can afford, this is totally ungodly, everything is about sex to these fools, and the cult is only 212 years old haha ah aha ha 212 years old, started by a cult leader Joseph Smith, who was a womanizer, this clown had 28 wives, and this pedophile married a 14 year old Helen Mar Kimball, it is written into their cult to practice polygamy…you can say you no longer practice what is a written rule in your cult practiced by your cult leader..the Holy Bible that we Christian believe does not change one day you let blacks in or as you call them in your cult book the undelightful one lol…wow.. so you mormans are putting your trust in a peodphile who had 28 wives, and married several women who where already married..and then he wanted one young girl so bad he told her that an angel was going to kill him if he delayed marring her…dude is a complete joke..ok mormans..let your families brainwash you but your responsible..you see how obviously stupid your parents are by being involved with this dumb cult..and yes we are called as Christians to call stupid things stupid things and cults..cults so nobody else gets sucked into this mess..young man or young women Jesus was perfect you are putting your soul into the hands of a womanizing polygamist…who had fun getting his rocks off…

  407. Jesus was perfect and he said I am the branch you are the vine no man comes to my father except through me…. Joseph Smith was just Cumming his way through the world by all the women…and young children he had sex with…Jesus against Joseph Smith lol..you got to be joking..Jesus warned us about clowns like this…Mormans you always change your cult beliefs that is the biggest sign of your fraud..the Holy Bible we Christians believe in never changes..and you clowns say you dont forgive murder? what a joke..Jesus's disciples committed murder and give the order for people to be killed..and Jesus forgave them..you clowns are too stupid…enough said…

  408. Davie, while I wouldn't put it the way you put it, you are essentially correct. We have a choice:

    1. believe that Jesus Christ and He alone is the only way to God in heaven.

    John 14:6

    6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

    OR

    2. believe the heresy that we need Joseph Smth's consent to enter God's presence.

    Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289

    "no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…. every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent."

    I choose to believe the Bible which says Jesus is the only way to heaven so Joseph Smith has nothing to do with whether we can be with God or not.

  409. Under "Do Mormons believe they get their own planet after they die?," you wrote, "The primary motivating factor in the Mormon religion is to attain happiness."

    If that is the case, and given that historically Mormons believed that happiness included being married in life to multiple wives and being sealed to multiple wives after death, why on Earth or in Heaven do you spend millions of dollars in vicious attacks on the right of other Americans to marry the people whom they feel will make them happy?

  410. I think it is 1) ridiculous that the kid above googled contradictory verses in the bible which anyone who actually has knowledge of the bible can point out the truth in all of scripture. and 2) at the initial article asking what is God truly about? the answer is simple. God is about God. He gives us JOY in HIM and HIS glory. true we are CO-HEIRS in CHRIST it is true that we will be united with him as we are the BRIDE of CHRIST but that in no way makes us equal to God because it still stands he is CREATOR we are CREATION. he is a God of love.

  411. I have stumbled onto the blog and have found it quite informative and Ive been enlightened to so many views and "opinions" which is great, Mostly because that is what Ive been looking for. Growing up in the beautiful state of Utah and not being LDS Its always been such a mystery and Ive actually learned that most of my close friends who are quick to say that they are LDS have no idea what they truly believe or the "rituals" or "ceremonies" are performed within the "church" or "temples" which leaves me very confused. Some things I have read (Which Im sure are pure speculation and opinions from others) have been mind blowing to say the least. Im not very articulate and dont know the bible or book of mormon well enough to recite scriptures so bear with me people. I have just a few questions and I would truly like the most simple answers as possible regarding some of the concerns I have so far regarding "mormonism"

    Why do members of the church "Tithe" especially if they want to have "endowments" or be "sealed" etc in the the temple???

    Why do they give you a new name during "rituals" performed in the temple??

    Does the church, Or has the church performed "Baptism for the dead" on proxies such as Anne Frank? and why??

    Those are just a few questions I have at the moment.. Remember Im just curious and I dont want to be attacked I purely want a simple answer. Thanks

  412. Im with Davie in the sense that so many of your beliefs have changed mostly because the Law of the country has forbid them. If it is the "The ONLY true church" than why do so many of your beliefs depend on the govt?

  413. I sat through a few movies mormons made to promote their religion. It was almost surreal as I sat and watched with an open mind. I wanted to know what they were about. It was incredibly odd, made me uncompfortable and oddly enough, sick to my stomach. This is before I knew they thought they were "gods in training". I believe most religions have a common denominator, but something was so off with these people. It reminded me of when I watched an exorcism movie, Emily Rose Ithink it was. They wrote their own bible. Or added to the original I should say. Who do you think you are? The Catholis? They are the only ones who can change the bible!! Lol….seriously though, a dude falls asleep in a meadow years ago and has a dream that Jesus told him he was a god? Come on man!! You based your whole religeon on Smiths dream? I dont know what happens when we die, but if God has a sense of humor, maybe he will give you your own planet..lol. In Utah when I was there, they have some strict rules they live by and crime rates are pretty low, so theyre doing something right. But can any of you explain why all those birds died when they flew over the main church? Sounds to me like He is sending a message. Thousands of birds DEAD, all over the property. Dont try and say it never happened either, it has been documented.

  414. Im with Jeff, I get that sick feeling too..And I was raised in Utah. But Ill be honest not that I judge the "Whole" by one person but alot of the LDS people I know are worse than people that dont preach their beliefs like they do..And Ill definately have to look into this bird thing, Ive never heard of it!

    Have you ever heard the joke. "How do you stop a mormon from drinking all your beer?? Invite two!" lol

    Also I would still like some answeres to the previous questions I have.

    Thanks

  415. I'm almost forty now and I have survived a traumatic childhood with out religion, talks of god etc. and in my early twenties I went as far as reading the whole bible cover to cover. I've sought out every religion and jumped through all the hoops. today I am in alot of pain….. I have no connection with god. where is he or it? I am in hell, I am weeping and gnashing my teeth.

  416. James, it is not about jumping through hoops as it is not about what we do but it is about what He did, Jesus, by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day to take all of our sins and all of our pain as well upon Himself.

    Put your faith in Him and not in a particular religion or church. It is about a relationship with God and not about, as I said, a religion as religion can get caught up in ritual, going through the motions (jumping through hoops), and lose track of why they are doing what they are doing in the first place.

    Also, it isn't about you being worthy but take heart, Jesus is worthy for you!

    Romans 10:9-13

    9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    So if you believe in Him and not yourself, what He did by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day to save you, a sinner who cannot ever save yourself, you will be saved which not only gives you a place in heaven when you leave this earth but will also give you peace in your heart here on earth as well. So call on the name of the Lord!

    Remember, God loves you!

    John 3:16

    16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    He already did it all as He said, "it is finished!"

  417. I grew exhausted reading all the arguing and name calling in previous posts.

    My question is simple, if the LDS church is supposed to be interested in converting everyone who is worthy to become a member then why is there so much cloak and dagger, secret society and earning your wings, so to speak, going on?

    What is so secret about worshiping God??? Shouldn't this be something people can and should be open about?

    Religion is NOT all about US it is ALL ABOUT GOD!

    It is my feeling that a person should be able to walk into a church and be welcomed with open arms and they should not have to EARN the right to know what the church believes. They should NOT have to dig through site after site about all the SECRETS or SACRED beliefs and practices. A person should not have to learn HOW TO PRAY, and there should not be more jumping up and down, bowing, kneeling and begging MORTALS for forgiveness. Religion is NOT a three ring circus, it should NOT be all about smoke and mirrors and fancy light shows, it should be basic and it should be about GOD.

    Finding a place to worship God should not be harder than filing your taxes! You should not have to reveal you entire life's story and you should be able to keep your private life, private.

    I think the real issue is not religions it is the people who follow the religions, as I said it is NOT all about US it is about GOD!

    Just some food for thought…

  418. People don't need organized religion to be good people. In fact I think organized religion makes people judgmental most of the time. But if following a religion and going to church every Sunday is what you need to feel content, then great for you! But don't push your beliefs on me. I have spent many hours researching religions, spending months and years in different churches. I have been Catholic, Mormon, Christian, Baptist, Lutheran, and Jewish in my lifetime. I don't believe any of those religions were even close perfect. But all of them had the fundamental belief in a higher power and being a good person.

  419. Below is the contrast between the Mormon gospel and the true gospel of the Bible and yes they are different. So it is either about following a bunch of laws and ordinances, what we do, or it is about what Jesus Christ did on the cross by dying and rising again on the third day to save us, sinners who can never ever save ourselves.

    “Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, has given us our map – A CODE OF LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS whereby we might attain perfection and, eventually, godhood. THIS SET OF LAWS AND ORDINANCES IS KNOWN AS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST and it is the only plan which will exalt mankind.”

    Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 6

    OR

    Corinthians 15:1-4

    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare TO YOU THE GOSPEL WHICH I PREACHED TO YOU, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

    3 FOR I DELIVERED TO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED: THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, 4 AND THAT HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

    So the Mormon Church does teach a different gospel warned about in Galatians 1 than what is taught in the Bible.

    Galatians 1:8-9

    8 BUT EVEN IF WE, OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL TO YOU THAN WHAT WE HAVE PREACHED TO YOU, LET HIM BE ACCURSED. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

    SAVED=ETERNAL LIFE=EVERLASTING LIFE!

  420. Organized religion is a joke and a plague on this planet. People have perverted it. I was raised a Christian, I want to believe god exists, but have many questions. My issue is the books you follow were written by men to control the population, not by God. In addition, I have never met more hateful and ignorant people than organized religion followers. Many religions call for love. Instead you get judgmental, hypocritical, closed minded people who tell you how to live your life. If there is a heaven and you get to it,

    how do you think God would judge you based on how you treat and judge others?

    You think you have the answers.. so did millions of people who walked on this planet 10,000 years before you were even born. What makes you right? 10,000 years from now, civilization will look back at today’s religions and lump them right in with myan, roman and greek gods and many others that have passed in time. I’m sure they’ll also feel their beliefs are the true and correct.

    I am not sure what the answers are, but I’m pretty certain, none of you do either. Beware those who claim to know what is out there, clinging to that buzz word “faith”.

  421. If you ask me, you're ALL CRAZY. Anyone who puts blind faith in a BOOK which was written by MEN seeking POWER is just asking for trouble. IF there IS indeed a "God" of some sort, I can imagine it's not very happy with the majority of religions & their followers who have decided to speak for it. IF there IS a god it would NOT condone WAR in its name. IF there IS a god, I think all it would want is for us to be good to ourselves and each other, otherwise we wouldn't all be so different, DUH! Everytime I get around these right wing religion fanatics I feel like I've been transported to the Dark Ages. They are all so seriously messed up its scary, like Hitler kind of scary, remember he was a righteous christian too! Birds of a feather people, they flock together. Very few religious types will I trust, as it takes a serious lack of intelligence to be one in the first place! You want something to believe in? Believe in SCIENCE, that's where the answers are, hellllooo. You want faith? Put it in yourself and those you love. Simple. Sooo simple !!

  422. MissMe has it right; nobody is going to hell (because there isn't one), nobody is going to heaven (because, wait for it………… there isn't one).

    All religions are invented by MAN, ie, anything/everything we know about god is something that some dude came up with. Bottom line, it was man that created god; not the other way around.

  423. Contrast the Mormon way to eternal life, which starts at the temple but you still are not there and you can never have eternal life unless you first enter the temple, perform all its rituals and obey all of the laws and ordinances but you still don’t know that you have eternal life.

    While with the blood of Jesus we can enter the Holiest place and we have eternal life by the blood o